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Author Topic:   "Evidence and Faith"
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 286 of 303 (403674)
06-04-2007 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by Hyroglyphx
06-04-2007 6:43 PM


Re: The Absolute Moralirty nonsense yet again.
Jar, you said that "evil" is predicated on where we live and how we are affected by that culture. You also said that people are products of their society. So if America is the bloodthirsty war machine you envision, then America is simply doing what its culture does, and Bush is simply a product of that culture.
Where then is the evil?
Yet more misrepresentation and a total failure to address what I posted.
Jar, traffic laws are enforced because there is a reasonable expectation that, should the average driver go any faster than the posted speed, it will likely cause an accident. And why don't they want to cause accidents? Because it kills people. Why don't they want people to die? Because we empathize with that.
Its like any other law that seems arbitrary. Beatings animals is a crime, not because of some arbitrary reason, but because we can empathize with the animal. And doing that to an innocent is immoral. Therefore, we pass laws in hopes that it will protect animals in the future.
Seriously, if laws didn't spawn from a moral framework, they would be completely arbitrary. That seems quite obvious to me. How can say that laws and morals bear no relevance to one another?
Again, simply avoiding addressing what I posted, when you even quoted what I said.
I repeat...
jar writes:
Laws are passed for a number of reason, most totally unrelated to morality.
A good example are speed limits. If the speed limit is 30 MPH it is 30 MPH regardless of whether or not there is ANY valid reason for it. It is 30 MPH when the road is totally empty or when it is so clogged with traffic that no movement is possible at any speed.
Seriously, if laws didn't spawn from a moral framework, they would be completely arbitrary.
Nonsense. They can be based on any number of considerations as well as being completely arbitrary (and many laws are completely arbitrary).
For example, in most cases speed limits are the same day and night even though conditions are totally different; they are the same in rain or shine even though the conditions are totally different; they are the same for the small agile MiniCooper and the big lumbering SUV even though the capabilities are entirely different; they are the same for the 16 year old with two weeks experience as well as the Formula 1 driver even though the individuals capabilities are entirely different and they are the same for the drunk driver as well as the sober driver, even though they capabilities are entirely different.
Is this what your marriage is/was based on? That's incredibly callow. Can't say I'm surprised though.
yet more of the classic Christian Cult of Ignorance tactic of trying to misdirect the audience.
You asked why people get married. I pointed out several (certainly not an exhaustive list) of reasons why people get married.
Instead of addressing what I posted you attempted to change the subject by implying that I might have gotten married for some callow reason.
Way to show the Christian Cult of Ignorance mindset nem.
Edited by jar, : hit wrong key.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-04-2007 6:43 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by riVeRraT, posted 06-04-2007 7:17 PM jar has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 287 of 303 (403678)
06-04-2007 7:12 PM
Reply to: Message 281 by ringo
06-04-2007 5:41 PM


That's not what you've been saying though. You've been claiming that people's motivations matter and that their beliefs matter. You've been sighing your little lungs out every time I showed you that Jesus said the opposite.
Yes it matters, but not to me. Only my beliefs matter to me.
I do believe that it matters to God though, and the bible will agree.
I do not think that faith alone, or acts alone is right. I think it is both.
Right now the way the world is, I would put more importance on acts, since religion is not holding up their end of the whole deal, and I believe religion is to blame for the lack of faith from so many. So when people get to heaven, if God is just, I believe He will understand why people don't believe.
God needs to be experienced for true belief to take place.
God gave me a vision, a thought, and that is that atheism is here to set religion straight. I think it will play out over the next 10-30 years. Atheism will win out over religion, but when it is all said and done, people will be left empty inside, once religion is defeated, and a hunger for God will still exist. Then they will not know where to turn for comfort.
That was my vision.
Now you're claiming that only riVeRraT's motivations matter? That only riVeRraT's beliefs matter? And only to riVeRraT, apparently?
And God.
So you agree then that anybody - Christian or non-Christian - can get to heaven? Based on what, if not their beliefs? Their actions?
I have said, and have been saying is, I do not know. If I was God, there are many people that I would let into heaven, just based on what I know about them. But I am not God.
I believe the Holy Spirit enables me to see people the way God sees tham, I mentioned that before It is with that heart, that I feel God letting many people who claim not to believe in God, right into heaven. But that is just my opinion. I could probably back it up biblically, but it is not necessary.
What have I been saying all along?
I know what you have been saying all along, and I wasn't disagreeing with you. I never denied what Jesus said, or what we are told He said.
You just thought I was judging people based on their beliefs, and I never said any such thing.
I can get along with anybody, but if they don't want to get along with me, then we can agree to disagree, and if they can't even do that, then they are on their own. I tried.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 281 by ringo, posted 06-04-2007 5:41 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 290 by ringo, posted 06-04-2007 7:58 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 291 by ICANT, posted 06-04-2007 8:08 PM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 288 of 303 (403679)
06-04-2007 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 286 by jar
06-04-2007 6:56 PM


Re: The Absolute Moralirty nonsense yet again.
For example, in most cases speed limits are the same day and night even though conditions are totally different; they are the same in rain or shine even though the conditions are totally different; they are the same for the small agile MiniCooper and the big lumbering SUV even though the capabilities are entirely different; they are the same for the 16 year old with two weeks experience as well as the Formula 1 driver even though the individuals capabilities are entirely different and they are the same for the drunk driver as well as the sober driver, even though they capabilities are entirely different.
I don't think I agree with that.
I think the speed limit is an average of all that, and then they take the lowest number, based on survivability of crashs.
But even after all that, the drivers manual will tell you about driving beyond your means, and limits.
And I think it is all based on what is morally correct.
It would be immoral to intentionally speed, and then happen to kill someone fromt the speed. IMO.
It would be immoral to set the speed limit at 100, when the majority of people do not possess the car, or the ability to do it safely, and even if they did, the guy next to them wouldn't, and could get in theri way.
{ABE}
Way to show the Christian Cult of Ignorance mindset nem.
I think you would get your message across (whatever that is)better without name calling.
Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 286 by jar, posted 06-04-2007 6:56 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by jar, posted 06-04-2007 7:28 PM riVeRraT has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 289 of 303 (403681)
06-04-2007 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 288 by riVeRraT
06-04-2007 7:17 PM


Re: The Absolute Moralirty nonsense yet again.
And I think it is all based on what is morally correct.
You need to support that assertion.
It would be immoral to intentionally speed, and then happen to kill someone fromt the speed. IMO.
Sorry but there are too many irrelevant qualifiers in there.
The speed limit does not say "don't intentionally exceed this speed limit and it's okay if it is unintentional."
The speed limit does not say "it's okay to exceed the speed limit if you don't kill someone."
It would be immoral to set the speed limit at 100, when the majority of people do not possess the car, or the ability to do it safely, and even if they did, the guy next to them wouldn't, and could get in theri way.
However, what you posted simply supports my position that the speed limit is relative and unrelated to morality.
I think you would get your message across (whatever that is)better without name calling.
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!
Excuse me?
Someone totally misrepresents what I post, as well as misrepresents what I believe, then implies that my marriage is or was based on "callow grounds" and you get upset when I post "Way to show the Christian Cult of Ignorance mindset nem."
Way too funny.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 288 by riVeRraT, posted 06-04-2007 7:17 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 298 by riVeRraT, posted 06-05-2007 8:40 AM jar has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 290 of 303 (403684)
06-04-2007 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by riVeRraT
06-04-2007 7:12 PM


riVeRraT writes:
I do believe that it matters to God though, and the bible will agree.
I do not think that faith alone, or acts alone is right. I think it is both.
It still comes down to the same bottom line: if anybody can get into heaven without believing in God, then beliefs don't count.
Atheism will win out over religion, but when it is all said and done, people will be left empty inside, once religion is defeated, and a hunger for God will still exist.
Some of the most empty people I've ever met were professing Christians. Letting go of "religion" is one of the most liberating and satisfying experiences that a person can have.
I believe the Holy Spirit enables me to see people the way God sees tham....
I believe elephants are made of chocolate.
I could probably back it up biblically, but it is not necessary.
I could back it up with quotes from The Last of the Mohicans but I don't wanna.
You just thought I was judging people based on their beliefs....
I didn't say one single solitary word about you judging people. You can judge people based on their shoe size for all I care.
I was talking about God judging people.
I know what you have been saying all along, and I wasn't disagreeing with you.
So, when you told me I was contradicting myself, which contradiction were you not disagreeing with?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by riVeRraT, posted 06-04-2007 7:12 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 299 by riVeRraT, posted 06-05-2007 8:49 AM ringo has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 291 of 303 (403685)
06-04-2007 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 287 by riVeRraT
06-04-2007 7:12 PM


Re-Evidence
I believe the Holy Spirit enables me to see people the way God sees tham, I mentioned that before It is with that heart, that I feel God letting many people who claim not to believe in God, right into heaven. But that is just my opinion. I could probably back it up biblically, but it is not necessary.
RR I would like to see the scripture that trumps:
John 3:18 (KJS) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 287 by riVeRraT, posted 06-04-2007 7:12 PM riVeRraT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by ringo, posted 06-04-2007 8:20 PM ICANT has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 292 of 303 (403686)
06-04-2007 8:20 PM
Reply to: Message 291 by ICANT
06-04-2007 8:08 PM


Re: Re-Evidence
ICANT writes:
RR I would like to see the scripture that trumps: John 3:18
Read the thread. You have to understand what it means to "believe".

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 291 by ICANT, posted 06-04-2007 8:08 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 293 by jar, posted 06-04-2007 8:31 PM ringo has not replied
 Message 294 by ICANT, posted 06-04-2007 10:22 PM ringo has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 293 of 303 (403687)
06-04-2007 8:31 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by ringo
06-04-2007 8:20 PM


Re: Re-Evidence
Read the thread. You have to understand what it means to "believe".
And the rest of John 3 to find out what "condemned" means.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by ringo, posted 06-04-2007 8:20 PM ringo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 295 by ICANT, posted 06-04-2007 10:26 PM jar has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 294 of 303 (403718)
06-04-2007 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 292 by ringo
06-04-2007 8:20 PM


Re: Re-Evidence
Read the thread. You have to understand what it means to "believe".
I did.
I do.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 292 by ringo, posted 06-04-2007 8:20 PM ringo has not replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 295 of 303 (403720)
06-04-2007 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 293 by jar
06-04-2007 8:31 PM


Re: Re-Evidence
And the rest of John 3 to find out what "condemned" means.
I did.
I do know.
I would still like to know RR's trump scripture.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 293 by jar, posted 06-04-2007 8:31 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 296 by jar, posted 06-04-2007 10:40 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 300 by riVeRraT, posted 06-05-2007 8:54 AM ICANT has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 296 of 303 (403727)
06-04-2007 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 295 by ICANT
06-04-2007 10:26 PM


Re: Re-Evidence
No need. John 3 only speaks of actions, behavior. And in addition, condemnation is not related to salvation, but only behavior.
The evidence of any belief is the way a person behaves, their acts and actions.
Further, Matthew 25 and other scripture make it quite clear that belief in Jesus, or even the profession of belief in Jesus is valueless and of no worth.
In the context of this thread, Creation as in Biblical Creation is totally unsupported by any evidence and in fact totally refuted by the evidence available.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by ICANT, posted 06-04-2007 10:26 PM ICANT has not replied

ABO
Junior Member (Idle past 6134 days)
Posts: 11
Joined: 06-03-2007


Message 297 of 303 (403731)
06-04-2007 10:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
04-26-2007 8:52 AM


GO FOR IT
I suppose when your talk to your pastor he might ask you what do you base your faith on. You might lead him to the First Church Of Evolution http://www.fcefaith.org where the written words of the Prophet Charles Darwin are recognized as sacred writings among those who believe they have descended form lower animals. As a follower of the Prophet you could sell your point with explaining why you believe the creation of transitional evidence through speculation and imagination is a solid foundation for your faith. Reiterate the fabrication of new imaginary creatures as it is always excepted as solid evidence. Then your might explain to the congregation that the book Genesis is just wrong based on your imagination. This could possibly prove to the pastor and congregation that the miracle called life itself is just dreamed up. Good Luck ABO

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 04-26-2007 8:52 AM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 298 of 303 (403805)
06-05-2007 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by jar
06-04-2007 7:28 PM


Re: The Absolute Moralirty nonsense yet again.
You need to support that assertion.
I don't think so, it's pretty plain to see.
Isn't safety a moral issue, since it includes invasion on others?
Excuse me?
To me, at least, you would be more convincing, just my humble opinion jar.
You can give and take away life with the tonque. I am guilty of it too, so feel free to correct me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 289 by jar, posted 06-04-2007 7:28 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 301 by Equinox, posted 06-05-2007 8:58 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 299 of 303 (403807)
06-05-2007 8:49 AM
Reply to: Message 290 by ringo
06-04-2007 7:58 PM


It still comes down to the same bottom line: if anybody can get into heaven without believing in God, then beliefs don't count.
How do you qualify that?
It is not a black and white issue.
That is why I keep telling you it is relative, and up to God. I know in my heart if I was to deny God at this point, I might not make it into heaven.
Take for instance when Jesus told the disciples about letting the least of my bretheren in, you have let me in. To me that implies that you do not need to actually let Jesus in. But they all believed in Him, and why didn't they ask Him why?
I am not also completely closed to the idea, that what Jesus did is a key for all who do good, to get into heaven.
But I know what it is for me, at this point in time.
Some of the most empty people I've ever met were professing Christians.
You know, there are Christians, and there are christians.
IMO 80% of christians in America, do not know the Holy Spirit. They would have a good reason to be empty.
If every christian in America tithed, there would be enough money to take care of all the world hunger, with surplus. Just how many christians are there?
Letting go of "religion" is one of the most liberating and satisfying experiences that a person can have.
Oh yea baby.
Don't you be guilty of confusing God with religion.
So, when you told me I was contradicting myself, which contradiction were you not disagreeing with?
That you are making getting into heaven by acts, and no faith, an absolute.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 290 by ringo, posted 06-04-2007 7:58 PM ringo has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 300 of 303 (403809)
06-05-2007 8:54 AM
Reply to: Message 295 by ICANT
06-04-2007 10:26 PM


Re: Re-Evidence
I would still like to know RR's trump scripture.
I agree with ringo and jar, but acts alone is not an absolute to me.
I agree that it is all how we define the word "believe" in the bible.
Believing, is an action,
Being saved is an action,
Being Christian, is an action.
But an action may not be any of those, according to God. According to us, it is just goodness, and not belief.
Jesus said many will say (Lord Lord) and do (drive out demons, and heal) in His name, but they won't make it to heaven.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 295 by ICANT, posted 06-04-2007 10:26 PM ICANT has not replied

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