Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 63 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 916,395 Year: 3,652/9,624 Month: 523/974 Week: 136/276 Day: 10/23 Hour: 0/2


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Dr. Schwartz' "MIssing Links"
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 13 of 86 (403620)
06-04-2007 2:08 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by subbie
06-04-2007 1:41 PM


appearance of changes as opposed to the changes themselves
It looks at first blush like he's proposing something akin to PE, but believes that changes are even more abrupt than Gould theorized.
It seems that it is the appearance of change that he is questioning.
From reading all of the links provided so far, it appears that what he is proposing is that while change (ie: mutation of parts of the DNA source) happen fairly regularly, that those changes might be suppressed during most periods, only to be expressed during periods of high stress.
If that is actually what he is saying, I'd hazard that it is a reasonable addition as opposed to a revolution, of the process.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by subbie, posted 06-04-2007 1:41 PM subbie has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 24 of 86 (403884)
06-05-2007 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by RAZD
06-05-2007 3:33 PM


My problem is what has been presented makes little sense.
Forget the headlines for the moment, help me understand the model.
He claims that ...
Schwartz argues that the structure of the genome does not keep changing, based on the presence of stress proteins, also known as heat shock proteins. These proteins are located in each cell, and their main function is to eliminate the potential for cellular error and change via maintaining normal cellular form through protein folding.
... but then later he says ...
If an organism's stress proteins are unable to cope with a significant change, the genomic structure can be modified. However, Schwartz notes, a mutation also can be recessive in an organism for many generations before it is displayed in its offspring. Whether or not the offspring survives is another matter. If it does in fact live, the presence of this genetically modified organism is not the product of gradual molecular change but a sudden display of the genetic mutation, which may have occurred myriad years prior.
... and that is where I get lost.
If the mechanism does not change due to the "heat shock proteins" then where do the changes that somehow lie dormant for "myriad years prior" come from?
Frankly, his scenario seems to make no sense. On one hand he says change can't happen but then it can and lie dormant until expressed.
What is the difference between a change that happened and was then put on the shelf just in inventory, only to be taken down and used during times of stress, and a "just in time genome manufacturing system" where things are expressed when produced and the successful ones kept?
Why would the two processes be mutually exclusive?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by RAZD, posted 06-05-2007 3:33 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by RAZD, posted 06-05-2007 6:11 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 26 of 86 (403899)
06-05-2007 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by RAZD
06-05-2007 6:11 PM


Re: My problem is what has been presented makes little sense.
The "heat shock proteins" are overwhelmed by the situation, and this allows the kinds of mutations, ones they normally prevent from occurring, to occur, resulting in stress response increased mutation rates -- as we have seen in some bacteria.
But if they normally prevent the mutations from occurring, how do the shelves get stocked in the first place?
If the scenario you describe is in fact what happens, what we would be seeing is "stress response increased mutation rates" and not the expression of some trait that was stocked on the shelf, lying dormant, for use "just in case".

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by RAZD, posted 06-05-2007 6:11 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by subbie, posted 06-05-2007 7:05 PM jar has replied
 Message 28 by RAZD, posted 06-05-2007 7:10 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 29 of 86 (403902)
06-05-2007 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by subbie
06-05-2007 7:05 PM


Re: My problem is what has been presented makes little sense.
Is he saying that the changes "store up" but are not expressed until something happens when the "heat shock proteins" are "overwhelmed?"
I don't know.
In addition, how would the two be distinguishable?
What differentiates a change that was stored but not expressed from one that is created at that time?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by subbie, posted 06-05-2007 7:05 PM subbie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by subbie, posted 06-05-2007 7:21 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 72 of 86 (417108)
08-19-2007 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Refpunk
08-19-2007 11:12 AM


One time might simply be ignorance.
But those whose whol goal is to deny God say; "Duh, I guess the similarities means dat, uh, my ancesotor was a mouse, yeah, uh-huh, uh-huh."
The first time you say something this stupid could just be another example of your ignorance. However I have told you personally that I believe in God, am a Christian and also fully accept the FACT that evolution happened and that the Theory of Evolution is the best explanation so far of how that happened.
In addition, the Clergy Letter Project, currently signed and endorse by almost 11,000 US Christian Clergy is proof that neither a belief in Evolution or support for the TOE or opposition to Biblical Creationism and the Christian Cult of ignorance implies a lack of belief in either God or the Bible.
Now that you have been informed of the facts, repeating such comments can only be an example of lying.
Finally, this thread is on the specific book mentioned in the Title and OP. Your posts are simply off topic in addition to being filled with factual errors.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Refpunk, posted 08-19-2007 11:12 AM Refpunk has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024