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Author Topic:   DRUGS!
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 166 of 180 (403145)
05-31-2007 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by Vacate
05-20-2007 5:03 AM


Vacate writes:

Is your rejection of medication a more general attitude or a complete rejection of all pharmaceuticals? As I say, I pretty much mirror your opinion, but I am curious about the details.

I listen regularly to Dr. Julian Whittaker head of the Whittaker Wellness Institute, the largest alternative health care facility in America. He's probably my favorite alternative professional. He goes on radio often with Deborah Rae who hosts a week daily 1 hour show He uses a minimal amount of pharms in his facility along with alternatives.

Personally I don't take any pharms of any kind and see no reason to since there seems to be alternative and diet solutions to anything that's come up in our family. I would certainly never recommend anyone go off parms cold turkey without professional healthcare advice.

http://whitakerwellness.com/about_us/medical_team/


This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Vacate, posted 05-20-2007 5:03 AM Vacate has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 507 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 167 of 180 (403146)
05-31-2007 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 165 by Buzsaw
05-31-2007 11:15 PM


Re: The problem with Buz and herbs
quote:
LOL. That's pocket parking meter dimes compared to the pharms. Pfizer alone, just one of the hundreds of pharms did 52 billion (also with a "b") in one year. The entire nutritional supplement/herbal industry only did in 2006 what just one of the lesser pharms did in 2004.

My guess is that the entire pharm industry does over half a trillion in a year and possibly a trillion or more.


You have consistently criticized the synthetic drug industry for being a big, profit-driven industry, and there is no doubt that it is exactly that.

But the point is, buz, that you are avoiding acknowledging, is this:

The nutritional supplement/herbal drug industry is a multi-BILLION dollar a year industry.

That ain't no pocket change.

It is a smaller industry, yes, but 6 BILLION dollars a year is still a big, big business.

So, what I want to know is will you also start criticizing the nutritional supplement industry for being a big, profit-driven industry?

Or, will you continue to give a SIX BILLION DOLLAR A YEAR for-profit industry a pass because of your bias in favor of it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Buzsaw, posted 05-31-2007 11:15 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Buzsaw, posted 06-01-2007 12:02 AM nator has responded
 Message 180 by Archer Opteryx, posted 06-06-2007 9:42 AM nator has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 168 of 180 (403147)
05-31-2007 11:50 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by riVeRraT
05-20-2007 7:36 AM


Re: The problem with Buz and herbs
Riverrat writes:

....they don't care about the money, they would do it for free

Well not quite free, but close to it and nearly all with good side effects compared to the extremely high prices of so many of the pharms most of which have their bad side effects.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by riVeRraT, posted 05-20-2007 7:36 AM riVeRraT has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by nator, posted 05-31-2007 11:53 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 507 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 169 of 180 (403148)
05-31-2007 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 168 by Buzsaw
05-31-2007 11:50 PM


Re: The problem with Buz and herbs
quote:
Well not quite free, but close to it

Six BILLION dollars in profits a year is "close to free"?

How do you figure that?

quote:
and nearly all with good side effects compared to the extremely high prices of so many of the pharms most of which have their bad side effects.

Do you accept the factual basis of each of the following statements?
A yes or no answer will suffice:

1) Comfrey contains high levels of pyrrolizidine alkaloids

2) Ingesting sufficient ammounts of pyrrolizidine alkaloids has been documented to contribute to hepatic veno-occlusive disease (liver failure)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Buzsaw, posted 05-31-2007 11:50 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 170 of 180 (403149)
06-01-2007 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by nator
05-31-2007 11:49 PM


Re: The problem with Buz and herbs
nator writes:

So, what I want to know is will you also start criticizing the nutritional supplement industry for being a big, profit-driven industry?

Generally, no. Compared to pharms mega billions, nutritionals are packet change. All business must make a profit and yes there are some nutritionals who are in it for $$ with little regard for the public.

Nutritionals must consistently provide beneficial services and results if they are to make it bucking the established healthcare industry so deeply entrenched in our culture or stay in business. The FDA is very tough regarding any side effects of the nutritionals or say a death or two whereas they allow hundreds of thousands of deaths a year due to the pharm problems, not to mention all the suffering and lifetime problems often associated with them.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by nator, posted 05-31-2007 11:49 PM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by nator, posted 06-01-2007 12:46 AM Buzsaw has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 507 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 171 of 180 (403152)
06-01-2007 12:46 AM
Reply to: Message 170 by Buzsaw
06-01-2007 12:02 AM


Re: The problem with Buz and herbs
quote:
Generally, no. Compared to pharms mega billions, nutritionals are packet change.

That doesn't matter, buz, as I explained previously.

I'll explain it another way.

City A has one million people in it.

City B has 6 million people in it.

The fact that City B is so much larger than City A does not mean that City A is not still a very large city.

Both industries are profit-driven big business, even though one is larger than the other.

quote:
All business must make a profit and yes there are some nutritionals who are in it for $$ with little regard for the public.

And how do they get punished if they sell products that they didn't know would hurt people?

quote:
Nutritionals must consistently provide beneficial services and results if they are to make it bucking the established healthcare industry so deeply entrenched in our culture or stay in business.

Bullshit.

Snake oil salesmen have historically always been able to make a good living preying on the gullible and desperate.

quote:
The FDA is very tough regarding any side effects of the nutritionals or say a death or two

No, they are not.

First of all, we have very little knowledge of the chemical compounds in many herbs and their effects, and since most of them are not prescribed through MD's but are taken OTC or through "herbalists" who are not (unlike MD's) required to keep records and report any problems, we actually do have not much of any idea if herbals are causing problems unless they are very serious.

Second, it is far more likely that herbs marketed to cure ailments or "support" various body systems have little to no effect at all, because the companies that sell them are not required to show that they are effective for what they are supposed to do.

Third, hasn't it ever struck you as odd that you can't go to the healthfood store and pick up a bottle of Herbal Cancer Cure, Herbal Epilepsy Relief, or Herbal Cystic Fibrosis Ender?

Almost all of the stuff available is marketed for health issues that usually resolve themselves in a short time, like colds or seasonal allergies, or have no reliable way to judge if they are working, like preparatins for "immune-boosting", or "circulatory system support".

But now that you mention it, Buz, I thought that you said that all of these herbs in bottles are food?

Why are they causing deaths at all if they are just nutritive foods and not theraputic herbal drugs meant to cure diseases and ailments?

quote:
whereas they allow hundreds of thousands of deaths a year due to the pharm problems, not to mention all the suffering and lifetime problems often associated with them.

The reason you hear about those problems at all is becasue the drug companies are required to find out about the risks and are also required to report problems if they happen.

Herbal drug marketers are under no such obligation and there is no requirement to report any adverse effects of any herbal drug by anyone who prescribes them or takes them.

Also, and you have made this error before, the number of people taking prescription drugs far, far, FAR exceeds the number of people taking herbal drugs, so of course the actual numbers of people reported to have problems with them is going to be greater.

Combine that with the fact that there is no system in place at all for identifying nor making public problems with herbal drugs and it is no surprise that the straight numbers look like they do.

Do you accept the factual basis of each of the following statements?

A yes or no answer will suffice:

1) Comfrey contains high levels of pyrrolizidine alkaloids

2) Ingesting sufficient ammounts of pyrrolizidine alkaloids has been documented to contribute to hepatic veno-occlusive disease (liver failure)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 170 by Buzsaw, posted 06-01-2007 12:02 AM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Buzsaw, posted 06-01-2007 9:38 PM nator has responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3990
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 172 of 180 (403228)
06-01-2007 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by JustinC
05-16-2007 3:18 PM


I've taken several types of drug in my time and can honestly say I have had the best of times and the worst of times on them:

Alcohol: Getting pissed down the pub with my mates and rolling home is fanatstic but falling on my arse while simultaneously vomitting on my clothes at my friends Dads' house was rubbish!

Dope: Sitting in my lounge for days on end getting toasted and talking about rule changes for AD&D was brilliant but pulling a whitey watching 'Brain dead' after doing one too many waterfalls was non, non heinous.

Shrooms: Sitting at a campsite looking at the clouds with my mate turn into imperial star destroyers was amazing but losing all sense of my identity and waking up choking on my own sick (that same night) sucked.

Coke: Felt pretty good for an hour or two but it wore off quick. bummer.

Speed: Dancin' the night away in club land and never getting tired makes you feel so alive but crying all day the next day because of the come down really hurts (and I wrote a really stupid leter to my ex about how much I still loved her- bah!).

E: Hugging my mates as we danced to REM at Glastonbury 2002 was the best time I have ever had but......actually E has no down sides for me; except it wears off and I go back to being a curmudgeon.

Can't wait to go to Glastonbury this year!


This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 173 of 180 (403336)
06-01-2007 9:38 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by nator
06-01-2007 12:46 AM


Re: Schraf's Wrong On Herbs & Alternatives
schraf writes:

City A has one million people in it.

City B has 6 million people in it.

The fact that City B is so much larger than City A does not mean that City A is not still a very large city.

Both industries are profit-driven big business, even though one is larger than the other.

Poor analogy: There are likely as many alternative little companies as there are pharms. The difference is that the big $$$ is in the pharms but the really safe & efficient benefits are in the
alternatives which use diet, exercise, concentrated food/herbal and fruit extracts, seeds, fish oils, herbal oils, spices, et al et al.

The pharms don't want anything to do with anything that they can't patent so as to make their big $$$. They can't patent rasberry seed extract or fish oil, for example, because it's simply a food product. So the big corporations looking for mega bucks and huge profits are the real ones in it for the profit.

Not only that, but often herbalists risk being prosecuted for claiming what they can do even more efficiently for disease as a cure whereas pharms get by with everything including killing people from side effects of their products.

schraf writes:

And how do they get punished if they sell products that they didn't know would hurt people?

They seldom get punished simply because rarely can it be shown that they ever hurt anyone. My question to you oto is why don't the pharms get punished for the hundreds of thousands they are hurting all the time? Hmmm? Could it be that there's too many $$$ and politics in it so everyone looks the other way?

schraf writes:

Snake oil salesmen have historically always been able to make a good living preying on the gullible and desperate.

Would you like to document where this is widespread in the major alternative health facilities? The science tech is mushrooming on alternatives and many MDs are integrating it in their practice. Not only that, but the major super markets are being forced by public demand to stock the organics and many of the alternative products.

schraf writes:

First of all, we have very little knowledge of the chemical compounds in many herbs and their effects, and since most of them are not prescribed through MD's but are taken OTC or through "herbalists" who are not (unlike MD's) required to keep records and report any problems, we actually do have not much of any idea if herbals are causing problems unless they are very serious.

Hogwash! The reason they aren't required to keep records is that we're talking about know edible products which have been consumed for eons for the most part. Mind you, the FDA would be all over these folks if they had any suspicion that they were harming anyone.

Furthermore, the folks in the $$ and the politics have no interest whatsoever in investigating the herbals and alternative. Why, because they'd be confronted with the FACT that the alternatives are far safer and in the long run usually far more effective. Why do you think so many folks who the MD's send home to die go to the alternatives as a last resort, often with the pleasant results of finding the real cure for what the MDs failed to accomplish?

schraf writes:

, Second, it is far more likely that herbs marketed to cure ailments or "support" various body systems have little to no effect at all, because the companies that sell them are not required to show that they are effective for what they are supposed to do.

Madear, this goes to show that you don't know what you're talking about and dead wrong about the alternatives. This is a field that you don't master in a fortnight. Apparantly you're trying to make the www think you're some kind of an authority on both the alternative healthcare when it's obvious you are quite ignorant on the science of both. I've been in it for decades and still learning. Alternatives have worked for me and my family without the need for MDs and the substantiated testimonies of others corroborate it all.

schraf writes:

Third, hasn't it ever struck you as odd that you can't go to the healthfood store and pick up a bottle of Herbal Cancer Cure, Herbal Epilepsy Relief, or Herbal Cystic Fibrosis Ender?

Again, the more you talk, the more you show your lack of knowledge on the subject. The reason you WON'T EVER SEE a bottle of herbal cancer cure, epilepsy relief, et al is because of that word WHOLISTIC. Alternatives do not treat symptioms. Alternatives treat the body. That's why so few side effects. If you have cancer, you begin to detoxify the body via the herbals, the water intake, the elimination of cancer causing agents in the diet, the drinking of herbal teas, the probiotics which cleanse, detoxify, and boost the imune system et al, et al. This will not only work to help the cancer, but will have a positive safe effect on every system of the body.

schraf writes:

Almost all of the stuff available is marketed for health issues that usually resolve themselves in a short time, like colds or seasonal allergies, or have no reliable way to judge if they are working, like preparatins for "immune-boosting", or "circulatory system support".

Wrong.

1. The stuff available works to effect a positive effect on the entire body, so whether you have arthritis, prostrate problems, cancer, colds, et al, that's what it's suppose to do.

2. Unlike the doc who writes you a quick prescription collects the big $$ from your insurance and sends you on your way in a few minutes, the alternative route uses a variety of products, adjusts the diet, educates you on what's causing the problem et al. Doesn't that make more science sense?

schraf writes:

But now that you mention it, Buz, I thought that you said that all of these herbs in bottles are food?

Why are they causing deaths at all if they are just nutritive foods and not theraputic herbal drugs meant to cure diseases and ailments?

I don't know of any deaths, but if there are any, c'mon, one or two compared to hundreds of thousands a year? Please be reasonable in your debating.

schraf writes:

Also, and you have made this error before, the number of people taking prescription drugs far, far, FAR exceeds the number of people taking herbal drugs, so of course the actual numbers of people reported to have problems with them is going to be greater.

Nonsense! Believe me in this day and age of media coverage, if a death or serious illness happens, the cause of death is found out and the bottom line is that regardless of how many people are treated, the deaths or significant bad effects just aren't happening from the alternatives, period.

schraf writes:

Combine that with the fact that there is no system in place at all for identifying nor making public problems with herbal drugs and it is no surprise that the straight numbers look like they do.

Schraf, you are out there in lala land all by yourself declaring that herbals are drugs. Get over it. Consumable herbs don't become drugs until they are patented as such and to do that they must be compounded into something that is unnatural and not just an herb. LOL if you think you can patent and make mega bucks from the grape seed extract which I take, for example.

schraf writes:

1) Comfrey contains high levels of pyrrolizidine alkaloids

2) Ingesting sufficient ammounts of pyrrolizidine alkaloids has been documented to contribute to hepatic veno-occlusive disease (liver failure)

1. Not in reasonable and natural state as I use it regularly via tea and poltice, et al. I even grab off a leaf and chew it up.

2. One would need to take an extraordinary amount of highly concentrated extract of the root to effect any significant damage.

3. Out of all the wonderful alternatives, you've found this etty bitty little one herb that you keep harping on. Why? Simply because that's your one itty bitty little straw to grasp onto so as to make the www think you've got some semblence of support for your looser arguments in this thread.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by nator, posted 06-01-2007 12:46 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Thugpreacha, posted 06-03-2007 3:03 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 175 by nator, posted 06-03-2007 10:13 AM Buzsaw has responded
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13365
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 174 of 180 (403462)
06-03-2007 3:03 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Buzsaw
06-01-2007 9:38 PM


Herbs & Alternatives
Buz, have you ever heard of Ecklonia Cava Extract? It is marketed by the Allergy Research Group and shows promise as a supplement.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Buzsaw, posted 06-01-2007 9:38 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 507 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 175 of 180 (403481)
06-03-2007 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Buzsaw
06-01-2007 9:38 PM


Buz, please stop dodging the issues.
City A has 6 million people.

City B has 1 million people.

Is City B still a large city?

A yes or no answer will suffice.

And how do they get punished if they sell products that they didn't know would hurt people?

quote:
They seldom get punished simply because rarely can it be shown that they ever hurt anyone.

Where are the records that show how many people were prescribed herbal drugs, which ones they took, the dosages, the length of time they took them, what other drugs they were taking, etc.?

If there are no records kept, and there is no controlled testing done, we don't know if they hurt anyone, or if they help anyone, or if they have no effect at all.

quote:
Would you like to document where this is widespread in the major alternative health facilities?

The Whitaker Wellness Institute you mentioned offers quite a few quack treatments that have not been demonstrated to have any (non-placebo) benefits other than lining the pockets of the people who hawk them, such as:

Accupuncture. WWI lists many conditions, including infertility and Parkinson's disease that are supposed to be helped by accupuncture even though there is no evidence to suggest that it can.

Chelation therapy, which has never been demonstrated to have theraputic benefit.

Reflexology, which has never been demonstrated to have an effect on the course of any disease is claimed by the WWI to be effective in relieving symptoms of such conditions as stroke, allergies, and hemorrhoids.

Here's a handy website where all manner of quack, untested or disproven treatments have been compiled and explained. You won't read it, but I feel I should provide it for completeness.

quote:
The science tech is mushrooming on alternatives

Evidence, please.

quote:
and many MDs are integrating it in their practice.

Evidence, please.

quote:
Not only that, but the major super markets are being forced by public demand to stock the organics and many of the alternative products.

So what? Major supermarkets are interested in making money in any way they can. They sell magnetic insoles and bracelets because the public demands them, not because they actually work.

First of all, we have very little knowledge of the chemical compounds in many herbs and their effects, and since most of them are not prescribed through MD's but are taken OTC or through "herbalists" who are not (unlike MD's) required to keep records and report any problems, we actually do have not much of any idea if herbals are causing problems unless they are very serious.

quote:
The reason they aren't required to keep records is that we're talking about know edible products which have been consumed for eons for the most part.

So what? There is still no way anybody can tell if the products are helping, harming, or doing nothing unless we have a record of who takes them, in what dosage, for how long, and what else it was combined with. A control group would be nice to have, too.

Remember what happened with echinacia last year? Everybody thought it was so great for preventing colds becasue the marketing people in the supplement business were doing their jobs, the people selling the stuff made tons of cash, and then a couple of studies were done to test it's effectiveness.

Oops. Turns out echinacia is no more effective in preventing people from getting a cold than a placebo.

Third, hasn't it ever struck you as odd that you can't go to the healthfood store and pick up a bottle of Herbal Cancer Cure, Herbal Epilepsy Relief, or Herbal Cystic Fibrosis Ender?

quote:
Again, the more you talk, the more you show your lack of knowledge on the subject. The reason you WON'T EVER SEE a bottle of herbal cancer cure, epilepsy relief, et al is because of that word WHOLISTIC. Alternatives do not treat symptioms.

That's bullshit.

I can go to the vitamin store today and see thousands of herbal drugs that are marketed to treat symptoms. Headache, diarrhea, sore throat, insomnia, nervous tension, sinus congestion, etc., etc.

Your WWI website lists all sorts of therapies meant to relieve symptoms, too.

quote:
Alternatives treat the body. That's why so few side effects. If you have cancer, you begin to detoxify the body via the herbals, the water intake, the elimination of cancer causing agents in the diet, the drinking of herbal teas, the probiotics which cleanse, detoxify, and boost the imune system et al, et al. This will not only work to help the cancer, but will have a positive safe effect on every system of the body.

Which herbs are effective against cancer, buz?

How do you know the immunse system is boosted by probiotics?

quote:
1. The stuff available works to effect a positive effect on the entire body, so whether you have arthritis, prostrate problems, cancer, colds, et al, that's what it's suppose to do.

How can you tell if the body is being hindered, or if the body is being helped, or if the body is unaffected by the probiotics and medicinal herbs?

quote:
2. Unlike the doc who writes you a quick prescription collects the big $$ from your insurance and sends you on your way in a few minutes, the alternative route uses a variety of products, adjusts the diet, educates you on what's causing the problem et al. Doesn't that make more science sense?

Unless the therapies and products have been demonstrated to be effective and safe through controlled studies, it makes no scientific sense whatsoever.

And I think you are doing a great disservice to medical science and doctors when you paint them all with the money-grubbing brush.

The elimination of smallpox wasn't done with herbals, buz. The greatly improved life expectancy of children in countries where vaccines have all but eliminated major childhood disease wasn't done with herbals, either.

Also, and you have made this error before, the number of people taking prescription drugs far, far, FAR exceeds the number of people taking herbal drugs, so of course the actual numbers of people reported to have problems with them is going to be greater.

quote:
Nonsense! Believe me in this day and age of media coverage, if a death or serious illness happens, the cause of death is found out and the bottom line is that regardless of how many people are treated, the deaths or significant bad effects just aren't happening from the alternatives, period.

I never said that they were only happening from herbal drugs, buz.

Let me explain it another way, even though I know you will just ignore it:

Group A has 1 million people in it. Half of them are taking a prescription drug, and since their doctors are required to keep records, and because the drug they are taking is sold in purified form and is standardized across brands for dosage, we know how much they are getting. We find that 5% of them get some of the known serious side effects. That's 25,000 people with serious side effects out of 500,000 taking the drug.

25,000 people sounds like a lot of people, but it is still only 5% of the whole group.

Now, Group B has 500,000 people in it. Half of them are taking an herbal drug, but they are taking it either OTC, out of their own backyards, or on the advice of some book or non-MD herbalist, so there is no consistent record of their taking it. We don't know how long they took it, what dosage, or how much, if any, active ingredient was in their pill, because there is no such purity or dosage standard in the herbal industry. We don't ever know, therefore, if any of them get any side effects, if the drug as known to produce positive or negative effects, since it has never undergone objective testing and no records were kept.

So we can't make any determination here at all of if the drug was having any effect, good or bad or neither.

ombine that with the fact that there is no system in place at all for identifying nor making public problems with herbal drugs and it is no surprise that the straight numbers look like they do.

quote:
Schraf, you are out there in lala land all by yourself declaring that herbals are drugs. Get over it. Consumable herbs don't become drugs until they are patented as such and to do that they must be compounded into something that is unnatural and not just an herb. LOL if you think you can patent and make mega bucks from the grape seed extract which I take, for example.

You are just making up your own definitions for things here.

An herb is a drug if it has active ingredients in it that are ingested with the intent to produce a theraputic effect.

Willow bark extract was a drug long before it was ever purified and patented, for example, because it was used as a pain reliever.

Nobody ingested willow bark extract becasue it tasted good or because it is nutritious. It was ingested becasue it was medicine.

I can go into the helth food store and see many shelves devoted to "medicinal herbs" and "medicinal teas". It says that right on the labels.

Herbal drugs and medicinal herbs are the same thing.

1) Comfrey contains high levels of pyrrolizidine alkaloids

quote:
1. Not in reasonable and natural state as I use it regularly via tea and poltice, et al. I even grab off a leaf and chew it up.

You would be wrong about that, at least in part.

Institute for Traditional Medicine

DOSE AND DURATION OF USE TO CAUSE HEPATOTOXIC REACTIONS
The dose and duration of exposure to the toxic PAs that have been associated with liver damage in humans was estimated by Culvenor (22)....[snip] Thus, the range of toxic doses in humans appears to be in the range of about 0.1-10 mg/kg per day. In most instances of PA liver toxicity in adults, the daily intake was several milligrams or hundreds of milligrams per day. However, it has been suggested by the World Health Organization in 1989 that the lowest intake rate of PAs that reportedly caused veno-occlusive disease in a human was just 0.015 mg/kg of body weight per day, based on use of comfrey. For a 70 kg adult, that would correspond to 1 mg total per day.

Exposure to PAs can vary markedly when using any given herb. Determination was made of PA content of comfrey roots and leaves by Couet and his colleagues (21); the roots had a range of 1400-8300 ppm, while the leaves had from 15-55 ppm. In an evaluation of 300 comfrey root samples in Germany, the PA range was found to be 450-5990 ppm (30). An evaluation of commercial comfrey products (10), showed that the PA content varied markedly: none detected in 2 products, to a range 0.2-220 ppm among 8 other products tested with detectable levels, and one with 1520 ppm (a comfrey root product). To reach a 1 mg per day dose, just 0.7 grams of herb at 1,520 ppm would be needed, about the amount that would be found in 3 of the 250 mg capsules, indicating that this product would be too toxic to consume on a regular basis. On the other hand, products with no detectable PAs and those with less than 1 ppm might be entirely safe. Further, method of preparation is also important. A decoction of root and leaf samples of comfrey lowered the available PAs by 75-95%. Different species of comfrey contain different types and amounts of toxic PAs.

So, you could be giving yourself low-level doses of liver toxins, or you might be perfectly safe. You don't know, though.

2) Ingesting sufficient ammounts of pyrrolizidine alkaloids has been documented to contribute to hepatic veno-occlusive disease (liver failure)

quote:
2. One would need to take an extraordinary amount of highly concentrated extract of the root to effect any significant damage.

Not true, as I showed above. Very small amounts of pyrrolizidine alkaloids can damage the liver.

quote:
3. Out of all the wonderful alternatives, you've found this etty bitty little one herb that you keep harping on. Why?

The reason I chose this specific example is to nail you down, Buz. You consistently speak in wide generalities and claim that herbs are never harmful and have hardly any side effects and can treat any ailment.

I found an example where that is not true, and if you refuse to admit it, it just shows that you hold your opinion irrationally and religiously rather than having a rational, knowledge-based belief.

I would like to remind you that I am not opposed to anybody purchasing any medicinal herb as long as the company selling it has demonstrated through controlled testing that the product is safe and effective for whatever it claims it can do. Likewise for claims made by authors and practitioners when they advise people to do or take certain substances.

Right now, no medicinal herb company has to demonstrate that their products are safe and effective.

Edited by nator, : No reason given.

Edited by nator, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Buzsaw, posted 06-01-2007 9:38 PM Buzsaw has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Buzsaw, posted 06-05-2007 11:45 PM nator has responded

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 176 of 180 (403951)
06-05-2007 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by nator
06-03-2007 10:13 AM


Re: Schraf, Please Stop Bloviating Your Nonscience.
I'm not going to have time to address all your bloviating, madear, and I'm very busy these days in my sole proprietor business, but will pick off some of your nonscience as I get the time. For now I'll see if I can make any more progress into getting into your thick head that food is not drugs, no matter how you spin it up.

schraf writes:

An herb is a drug if it has active ingredients in it that are ingested with the intent to produce a theraputic effect.

By this token, garlic, catnip, camomile, eyebright, celery, carrots, broccoli, parsley, rubarb, black rasberry, blueberries, flax oil, lecithin, wheat germ, fish oil, cocoa, oreganol, chickory, pepsin, mint, oxygen, chromium, zink, iron, magnesium, calcium, copper, manganese, eucalyptus, camphor, et al et al et al et al.........are all drugs which have a theraputic effect Why? Because these are some of the ingredients of common vitamins, minerals, treatments and herbal alternative supplements which alternative health practitioners use to alleviate the health problems of their constituents, the side effects of which are most always good and not devestating as is the case with so many pharms.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by nator, posted 06-03-2007 10:13 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by crashfrog, posted 06-06-2007 12:03 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded
 Message 179 by nator, posted 06-06-2007 6:43 AM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 177 of 180 (403958)
06-06-2007 12:03 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Buzsaw
06-05-2007 11:45 PM


Re: Schraf, Please Stop Bloviating Your Nonscience.
Active ingredients, Buz. Not "made-up hippie-granola bullshit" ingredients.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Buzsaw, posted 06-05-2007 11:45 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1934 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 178 of 180 (403964)
06-06-2007 2:21 AM
Reply to: Message 173 by Buzsaw
06-01-2007 9:38 PM


Are MDs really on board?
Buz: many MDs are integrating [alternatives] in their practice.

I'd like to see data to support this claim.

It's true that many patients augment their medical treatments with alternative remedies. MDs generally say little about it as long as the alternatives don't affect the protocol.

Plenty of cancer patients get acupuncture. But I have yet to hear of an oncologist referring a patient to an acupuncturist--even for supplemental treatment.

Please support your assertion.

_____

Edited by Archer Opterix, : brev.


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Buzsaw, posted 06-01-2007 9:38 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 507 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 179 of 180 (403976)
06-06-2007 6:43 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Buzsaw
06-05-2007 11:45 PM


Re: Schraf, Please Stop Bloviating Your Nonscience.
An herb is a drug if it has active ingredients in it that are ingested with the intent to produce a theraputic effect.

quote:
By this token, garlic, catnip, camomile, eyebright, celery, carrots, broccoli, parsley, rubarb, black rasberry, blueberries, flax oil, lecithin, wheat germ, fish oil, cocoa, oreganol, chickory, pepsin, mint, oxygen, chromium, zink, iron, magnesium, calcium, copper, manganese, eucalyptus, camphor, et al et al et al et al.........are all drugs which have a theraputic effect.

Nope. Those are almost all either nutritive foods or minerals.

They contain no active compounds that are ingested to produce a theraputic result.

Like, you could never overdose on celery, but you can overdose on acetylsalicylic acid, the active compound in willow bark that produces the theraputic effect of pain relief, reduction in acute swelling, and fever reduction.

This herb talk is pretty off-topic anyway, but if I have some time I'm going to start a new thread. I will restate my responses to your statements that you have avoided addressing. See you there.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Buzsaw, posted 06-05-2007 11:45 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1934 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 180 of 180 (403999)
06-06-2007 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by nator
05-31-2007 11:49 PM


profit without honour
About the 'alternative medicine' industry nator tells Buz:

6 BILLION dollars a year is still a big, big business.

Especially when one remembers that the profits come entirely from people spending out of pocket. No help from insurance and subsidies.

And that's on top of what they already spend on health care.

For a product that says plainly on the label that it offers no demonstrated health benefit.

_____


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by nator, posted 05-31-2007 11:49 PM nator has not yet responded

  
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