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Author Topic:   Where Science And The Bible Meet
Zhimbo
Member (Idle past 6011 days)
Posts: 571
From: New Hampshire, USA
Joined: 07-28-2001


Message 61 of 208 (397625)
04-26-2007 10:55 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by ArchArchitect
04-26-2007 4:03 PM


quote:
"So what good would it do for God to speak scientifically to the people of the time when this was written? They would not have a clue what He was talking about. "
I think it's perfectly acceptable that Jesus was being a bit poetical.
But that would nullify your opening post.
Remember your opening post?
Sure, consider it a poetic expression made in terms understandable by contemporary listeners - but you can't ALSO consider an example of scientific accuracy. These are contradictory opinions.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 62 of 208 (397626)
04-26-2007 10:58 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by ArchArchitect
04-26-2007 4:03 PM


So what good would it do for God to speak scientifically to the people of the time when this was written?
But why speak unscientifically?
Stars are bigger than the Earth, they're very hot, if just one came near us the Earth would fall into the star, 'cos that's how gravity works, and we'd melt and evaporate before we even hit.
They would not have a clue what He was talking about.
Whereas instead he gave them the plain, simple message that stars were going to fall out of the sky. Which is nice and straightforward to understand and, let's face it, it's not going to happen.

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Garrett
Member (Idle past 6165 days)
Posts: 111
From: Dallas, TX
Joined: 02-10-2006


Message 63 of 208 (397777)
04-27-2007 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Dr Adequate
04-26-2007 10:58 PM


I think a lot of the confusion has to do with what people of the time would consider to be a star. I'm guessing if large amounts of asteroids or comets were to crash to earth, 1st century people would consider them stars.
Further, 'star' is just the English word chosed to represent the word originally used in the source language. Maybe it was the closest fit, but not precise. So, from this perspective it could happen. Really, it appears the only thing that couldn't happen is someone with an anti-biblical bias actually looking at a bible verse with an open mind rather than scepticism.

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 Message 64 by Coragyps, posted 04-27-2007 5:38 PM Garrett has replied

  
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 734 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 64 of 208 (397780)
04-27-2007 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by Garrett
04-27-2007 5:29 PM


Further, 'star' is just the English word chosed to represent the word originally used in the source language.
True. The original term likely meant either "little speck of light stuck on the inside of the firmament" or possibly "pinhole in the firmament." And you need not think for a moment that anyone in 90AD knew about asterois.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by Garrett, posted 04-27-2007 5:29 PM Garrett has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Garrett, posted 04-27-2007 5:45 PM Coragyps has not replied
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Garrett
Member (Idle past 6165 days)
Posts: 111
From: Dallas, TX
Joined: 02-10-2006


Message 65 of 208 (397785)
04-27-2007 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Coragyps
04-27-2007 5:38 PM


Granted, they would have no clue what asteroids were. My main assertion is that 'stars' could be the description Jesus used to get the point across. I think even though they wouldn't know asteroids, they would certainly consider them a fulfillment of what Jesus said if they were to come crashing to earth in large quantities.

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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 66 of 208 (397792)
04-27-2007 6:06 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Coragyps
04-27-2007 5:38 PM


On meteors and meteorites.
True. The original term likely meant either "little speck of light stuck on the inside of the firmament" or possibly "pinhole in the firmament."
Since it is pretty obvious that many folk of the period thought that the firmament was an actual, physical dome, that is probably correct.
And you need not think for a moment that anyone in 90AD knew about asteroids.
That part though is likely wrong. They knew about meteorites, and collected and used them as a source for iron. They even knew that they came from the sky.
They did not though know the origin, the history or the mechanics of meteorites and all of their speculations about them, were wrong. Beyond the simple observation that sometimes rocks fell from the sky and that some of those rocks were metal of a very high quality, they were clueless.
The point is that nothing in the passages is scientific. It can be taken for a sign just as thunder was a sign of Zeus' displeasure.
But science it ain't.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Damouse
Member (Idle past 4905 days)
Posts: 215
From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
Joined: 12-18-2005


Message 67 of 208 (403913)
06-05-2007 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Garrett
04-27-2007 5:45 PM


On the topic of falling asteroids...
If one is in the center of a three dimensional sphere, does one know that there is a sphere? Existance would seem flat whereever he looked; looking at a side of the sphere would look like a large flat expanse.
If stars are holes in this unmoving firmament, how can a hole of a plane detach itself and still be a hole? a hole is nothing without the area around it, the lack or area inside of it, that makes it a hole. therefore for stars to be falling, holes would have to move away from the firmament, dragging along the firmament around them to maintain their status as holes before hitting the ground.
Scientifically and logically, this train of thought makes is rediculous, and its hard to believe that god would not be a little more clear and tell the actual science behind "the sky is falling!"

This statement is false.

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 Message 68 by ringo, posted 06-05-2007 10:51 PM Damouse has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 68 of 208 (403935)
06-05-2007 10:51 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by Damouse
06-05-2007 9:03 PM


Damouse writes:
If stars are holes in this unmoving firmament....
Why would they be?
Wouldn't they be more like lamps hanging from the ceiling/firmament?

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Damouse
Member (Idle past 4905 days)
Posts: 215
From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
Joined: 12-18-2005


Message 69 of 208 (403948)
06-05-2007 11:42 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by ringo
06-05-2007 10:51 PM


Jar and coragyps decided that "holes in the firmament" were about right, and i dont claim to have any particular proficiency in mythology, so i took their uncontested agreement and ran with it.
lol "and so the sun will stop shining, the moon will stop its light, and the lamps will fall"

This statement is false.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 70 of 208 (403956)
06-05-2007 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Damouse
06-05-2007 11:42 PM


almost
Jar and coragyps decided that "holes in the firmament" were about right, and i dont claim to have any particular proficiency in mythology, so i took their uncontested agreement and ran with it.
The holes in the firmament are what open and close to let the water above come through. The stars are likely lights in or on the firmament.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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Damouse
Member (Idle past 4905 days)
Posts: 215
From: Brookfield, Wisconsin
Joined: 12-18-2005


Message 71 of 208 (404285)
06-07-2007 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by jar
04-27-2007 6:06 PM


Re: almost
quote:
"Further, 'star' is just the English word chosed to represent the word originally used in the source language."
True. The original term likely meant either "little speck of light stuck on the inside of the firmament" or possibly "pinhole in the firmament." And you need not think for a moment that anyone in 90AD knew about asterois.
Where "star" is the direct object of the quote clause, Coragyps responds with the "pinhole in the firmament" clause. To which you responded with:
quote:
...that is probably correct.
So it was interpereted as a light stuck on the inside of the firmament, not a hole? It was a little confusing when you answered positively to two seperate options.
"Do you like orange or apple?"
"Yes."
Edited by Damouse, : No reason given.

This statement is false.

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 Message 66 by jar, posted 04-27-2007 6:06 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 72 of 208 (404287)
06-07-2007 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Damouse
06-07-2007 7:51 PM


Don't make the mistake of thinking the Bible is consistent.
I don't remember the thread but without a link to the conversation I will simply accept what you posted.
You need to remember that the Bible is not consistent. This is particularly true in regard to the physical world. That is to be expected when you stop to realize that you are looking at stories written over many hundreds of years if not thousands of years.
One basic concept that appears in some of the older stories is of a firmament.
The firmament was literally thought to be a dome, a solid object, that separated the waters above from the earth. It had to be solid or all the water would fall down. It also had to have parts that could be opened or closed to explain rain.
Stars, the Sun and the Moon could either be inside of the dome, or the dome could be transparent so that their light shined through.
That would not prevent some other author from writing a tale were the heavens were fiery and the stars were pin holes in the firmament that let the light through.
Do not make the mistake of assuming consistency is required of the stories in the Bible.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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imageinvisible
Member (Idle past 5918 days)
Posts: 132
From: Arlington, Texas, US
Joined: 12-03-2007


Message 73 of 208 (442410)
12-21-2007 3:50 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Larni
04-23-2007 6:26 AM


Re: Bible predicts blockage.
Error Page | shamar.org
I think you missed the point, not uncommon, so many do. As to Matthew 24:29 if you didn't notice those are red letter words. Jesus, the Creator of the universe, is speaking. This is the same man who walked on water, raised the dead, restored sight to blind men, cured the sick, calmed a storm with the words from His mouth, etc. etc. ect. He controls the universe. Why don't you read verse 30 while you are at it. That way when it happen's you can't say you where not warned. Perhaps you will even recognize it when you see it, and repent.
Young's literal translation, Matthew writes:
24:29`And immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken;
24:30 and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast, and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory;
When you control the universe, you can tell it to do what ever you want it to do, and it has no choice but to obay.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Larni, posted 04-23-2007 6:26 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by sidelined, posted 12-21-2007 7:13 AM imageinvisible has replied
 Message 75 by Larni, posted 12-21-2007 1:46 PM imageinvisible has replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 74 of 208 (442420)
12-21-2007 7:13 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by imageinvisible
12-21-2007 3:50 AM


Re: Bible predicts blockage.
imageinvisible
When you control the universe, you can tell it to do what ever you want it to do, and it has no choice but to obay.
So exactly how do stars "fall" from heaven if you could please explain?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by imageinvisible, posted 12-21-2007 3:50 AM imageinvisible has replied

Replies to this message:
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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 75 of 208 (442501)
12-21-2007 1:46 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by imageinvisible
12-21-2007 3:50 AM


Re: Bible predicts blockage.
ArchArchitect writes:
People keep saying that the Bible and Science are enemies. In reality they are not.
imagineinvisible writes:
Jesus, the Creator of the universe, is speaking. This is the same man who walked on water, raised the dead, restored sight to blind men, cured the sick, calmed a storm with the words from His mouth, etc. etc. ect. He controls the universe.
You honestly think the arguement of the OP is being supported by what you just said?
You seem to be saying that Jesus could use magic to circumvent the laws of physics. If he did have supernatural powers that are beyond the ken of mortal man then it can't be science (if it is it is hardly divine).
If this is so then you are contradicting the OP.
So: apart from saying Jesus is magic and can bust physics' arse at will what is your point?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by imageinvisible, posted 12-21-2007 3:50 AM imageinvisible has replied

Replies to this message:
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