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Author Topic:   Why It Is Right To Do Good To Others
JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2347 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 23 of 304 (404208)
06-07-2007 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by anastasia
06-07-2007 12:03 AM


Smiles and morality
C'mon, Stile, smiles aren't morality.
Oh, yes they are (in a sense).
What is morality when we get down to it, apart from the rules we use to regulate our behaviour towards one another? And why do we need to regulate our behaviour? So that I can get on with pursuing the things I want to do, and you can get on with the things you want to do.
I'd argue that there's nothing more to morality than that. If I increase your pain or reduce your happiness, I'm acting immorally; conversely, if I reduce your pain or increase your happiness, I'm acting morally.
Any parent knows that frowns are a part of growing up. You don't give kids whatever they want, you don't give adults whatever they want. How are you going to determine what is 'good' for another person? By and large, you can't. That doesn't mean you can give up on your idea of what is good. No one does that.
You might think that your argument here contradicts the utilitarian formula I gave in the previous paragraph, but it doesn't. You are still basing your moral judgement on what is in the child or adult's best interests, i.e. what will increase their happiness in the long run, even if, in the short term, they have to suffer an increase in pain.
We let people do as they please only because we think that is a good thing. We let them get away with as much as possible before they start interfering with OUR morality. When they don't let us do as WE please. If you don't want to do 'good', we throw you in jail.
Again, you might think that this contradicts the utilitarian formula as well. But, again, I'd argue that it confirms it rather than contradicts it. In any action I take, there's more than just me and you to consider; there's the rest of society as well. If I take an action that increases your happiness, but also increases the pain of a whole bunch of other people, my action could be considered immoral. And we jail an individual person who has broken the law precisely for such utilitarian reasons. We jail them:
(a) to ensure that they don't cause harm to other people (reducing their happiness to reduce the possble pain that may be caused to others);
(b) to deter other people from committing the same offense (reducing their happiness to create a tangible legal sanction against acts that society considers immoral).
So, I'd argue morality is all about smiles (and frowns), Anastasia. Miles and miles of smiles and frowns ....

'I can't even fit all my wife's clothes into a suitcase for travelling. So you want me to believe we're going to put all of the planets and stars and everything into a sandwich bag?' - q3psycho on the Big Bang

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by anastasia, posted 06-07-2007 12:03 AM anastasia has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Stile, posted 06-07-2007 4:18 PM JavaMan has not replied

  
JavaMan
Member (Idle past 2347 days)
Posts: 475
From: York, England
Joined: 08-05-2005


Message 38 of 304 (404352)
06-08-2007 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Stile
06-07-2007 4:43 PM


Re: And so we are on to definitions...
Although I've defended your position in a previous post, I think your arguments here are indefensible.
2. Not stealing a pack of gum from WalMart
That's not "good". It's just "not bad". I would say this is morally neutral
Stealing (even from WalMart) is considered morally wrong in all societies. It may sometimes be justified, but it is never considered morally right or even morally neutral. If your definition of morality fails to allow for this fact, then there must be something wrong with your definition.
If you steal from me, that reduces my happiness; if I steal from you, that reduces your happiness. As a society, therefore, we voluntarily agree not to steal from one another, so that we can enjoy our possessions in peace. That voluntary agreement is enacted as a moral prohibition against the act of stealing, so that any such act, in whatever circumstances, attracts social and even legal punishment.
1. Picking up a piece of trash out in the woods
I would say such an act is morally neutral. Why do you say it is morally good? I can see it being morally good if you add some more information such as:
-the wood was dying from pollution. In which case "the being" you're helping here is the wood itself. I was trying to be careful and not use the word "person" so as to include any living creature. Including plants.
Again your purely psychological definition of morality is leading you astray. Fifty years ago you could have argued that leaving trash in the woods was a morally neutral act; but nowadays, when it's morally frowned upon and even illegal in some countries, it certainly isn't considered morally neutral.
Morality, in the main, is something decided upon by society as a whole, not by individuals. You don't get to decide that stealing or leaving trash in the woods are morally neutral. If you carry out either of those acts, and you get caught doing them, you'll suffer the appropriate social sanction, whatever your personal views.
3. Stopping the boiling water from spilling on the baby
Not being able to read the future, I won't be able to say that this baby is going to be incredibly thank-ful or not. Chances are though, once they are capable to express their thanks, they would.
Stopping a baby from being scalded by boiling water is a good thing. Everybody knows that. If your definition of morality has difficulty explaining why it's a good thing, then there's a problem with your definition. Don't waste your time trying to wriggle around the question, just adjust your definition.
The simple explanation of why it's considered a good thing is just that stopping people being harmed is a good thing. You don't need to create fanciful theories about the internal psychological state of the people (or babies) affected. Getting scalded hurts, and stopping someone from getting hurt, other things being equal, is always a good thing.

'I can't even fit all my wife's clothes into a suitcase for travelling. So you want me to believe we're going to put all of the planets and stars and everything into a sandwich bag?' - q3psycho on the Big Bang

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Stile, posted 06-07-2007 4:43 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Stile, posted 06-08-2007 2:43 PM JavaMan has not replied

  
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