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Author Topic:   Question on arbitrary lines
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4080 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 7 of 24 (40440)
05-16-2003 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by vr_junkie
05-16-2003 12:55 PM


Re: I'm here...
quote:
Where I would "draw the line" is if someone states as fact that evolution has occurred on the order of molecules to man by purely random means.
Evolution isn't random. Mutations are random, but natural selection is the opposite of random.
quote:
All actual witnessed occurrences of evolution I have seen involve merely errors in genetic information. Examples would include dropped genes, duplication errors, even redistribution errors (a genetic shuffling if you will).
Mere errors in genetic information is what leads to evolution. For example, if a gene is duplicated, now you have an extra gene. If that gene isn't expressed, then natural selection won't act on it, and it will be free to mutate at whatever mutation rate that species has. If it eventually mutates into something that is expressed, then natural selection will act on it.
quote:
What remains to be seen is: new, additional, and functional genetic information for new structures which were not already present.
The genetic duplication I just described is new information. How else did you want new information to come?
New structures do not generally just appear unless they are a repeat of a previous structure. A mutant might be born with an extra set of legs, but not with say, a pair of wings growing out of its back. More likely is a mutant with, say, an extra vertebrae than its parents. Such things happen, when the structure is just a repeat of a current structure.
New structures come from old ones, they don't show up fully formed. Lungs evolved from swim bladders. Lobster claws evolved from legs. Wings evolved from legs, as did mammal flippers. All these things are the result of "mere" genetic errors, such as gene duplication, which you described.
quote:
The Cambrian explosion with it's new time constraint of possibly as few as 2 or 3 my is drastically to small a time frame to come up with 70 new phyla - the number of which has ever since been decreasing.
Do you have a reference for this, and if it happened, then how could it be too small a time?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by vr_junkie, posted 05-16-2003 12:55 PM vr_junkie has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by vr_junkie, posted 05-16-2003 5:04 PM truthlover has replied

  
truthlover
Member (Idle past 4080 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 21 of 24 (40492)
05-17-2003 3:20 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by vr_junkie
05-16-2003 5:04 PM


Re: I'm here...
quote:
Since they do not show up fully formed, can you explain to me how half a lung (or claw, or flipper) could present a clear advantage for natural selection to act upon.
Yes, but only because I read Darwin, and he did it for me. Swim bladders hold air for floating. Living tissue has the marvelous ability to be able to absorb nutrients from the substances it is in contact with. Some fishes can use their swim bladders to collect oxygen. This confers an obvious survival benefit.
Other fishes have tubes (I'm sure there's a more technical term, but I can't seem to think of it right now) in their swim bladders. This provides more surface area and makes the swim bladder a better organ for the intake of oxygen from the air in it.
Oh, I forgot to mention the first step, which is an opening to the outside of the fish, which allows it to intake air into the swim bladder. Some fishes have to provide their own air, pulled from the water, and this obviously is pretty useless for breathing. Many fishes do have an outlet for their swim bladder to take in it's own air.
Obviously, at this point, we don't need much else. The tubes multiply, the surface area multiplies, and the swim bladder becomes quite efficient at absorbing oxygen, allowing the fish to survive in situations where it can't breathe water. At that point, it may still occasionally be used as a swim bladder, but it's a lung, too.
The claw works like this, as Darwin also explained. The second segment of the front leg develops a ridge. This allows the first segment, furthest from the lobster, to press things against the ridge. This is a grasping mechanism, and it confers obvious benefit, and it needs no more than a bump.
Believe it or not, now all that has happened is that ridge/bump has grown so large that it meets the first segment of the leg along the entire length of the segment, allowing it to work very well for grasping. As that happened, shape changes made the grasping effects even better, as the end part of the limb and the ridge gained the correct shape to be an efficient claw.
All the steps I've outlined above are seen in nature, are small enough that even you would allow such mutations, and they lead to the claw and lung.
I'll let someone else take a shot at the hand to flipper lineage, but I suspect even you could find the intermediate steps with a little thought.
Funny, it turns out you can line up those kind of steps even with something as complex as an eye, and show the steps in living creatures today!
quote:
A good starting point is this English translation of an early Chinese article: http://dawning.iist.unu.edu/...a/bjreview/97Apr/97-13-7.html
The time frame in that article is 3-5 million years, not 2-3. That still makes it very rapid, but it is nearly double the time frame you gave.
It seems to me, as a real amateur at all this, that with every niche of life open to the evolving species of the Pre-Cambrian and Cambrian era, it's no wonder evolution was so rapid. Even after the extinction of the dinosaurs, mammals filled most of the niches of life in 10-20 million years, which is an extremely rapid explosion of evolution due to lack of competition. Many avenues of development were open to the new organisms.
The Cambrian explosion was a perfect period for the same sort of development, and it's not real surprising, due to the way we label things and the way life tends to "fill the niches" that no new phyla have developed since. There was a discussion on a different thread about the way we classify life forms, and we would not be prone to creating a new phyla in which to put some new life form we found today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by vr_junkie, posted 05-16-2003 5:04 PM vr_junkie has not replied

  
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