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Author Topic:   Please - Some Impartial Advice Needed
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3426 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 16 of 240 (404733)
06-09-2007 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by taylor_31
06-08-2007 3:00 PM


Hey Taylor,
Firstly, I would like to congratulate you for having the courage to come out to your mother. It is a big step and not one taken lightly. Just the fact that you felt the need to tell her already says that you are probably beyond the "confused" stage.
Secondly, I want to bring up a very important point. You have had some time to grapple with your attractions and the implications they bring to yourself and to those you love. Your mother has not. It is important to give her time to come to terms with your revelation. She may never be OK with it and that is something you have to accept up front. Even the most liberal of parents sometimes have a hard time accepting this. More than likely, however, she will eventually come around. It will take time, though.
You also need to be prepared to answer to her fears calmly and positively(i.e. "am I going to have grandkids??" "i'm afraid of you getting AIDS!" etc). Try not to lose patience with her or others you come out to. It is easy to assume the stance that people either have to accept you or they can go to hell, but it is better to accept yourself first and be prepared for some backlash. Educate yourself about a healthy gay lifestyle and seek out a gay youth support group, if that is your scene.
So what do you think I should do? Is it possible that she's right and I am deluding myself? Perhaps I am confused; perhaps I'm relying too heavily on my friend and his influence; and I probably would be making a big mistake to come out and then be wrong about it! Is it possible to learn to like girls? Or am I stupid for even thinking such a dumb thought?
Like I said, you are likely beyond the "confused" stage if you felt strongly enough to come out to your mother. These questions are better answered by you, however, than anyone here. Do you think you are deluding yourself? Do you really think that your friend could possibly influence you to like guys?
I hope you have someone you can talk to about this in your offline life, but I'm happy that you are seeking support here, too.
Here is a website dealing with coming out issues. There are many more. Seek them out and if you need any help, I will gladly be of service Feel free to email me if you wish.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by taylor_31, posted 06-08-2007 3:00 PM taylor_31 has not replied

  
Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3426 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 17 of 240 (404741)
06-09-2007 12:50 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by taylor_31
06-08-2007 7:14 PM


Re: thanks everyone
Overall, she told me that I was throwing away everything I have worked for, everything in my life, for a dumb lie.
Although this kind of statement is obviously a reach from desperation and irrational fear, you need to ask her what she meant by that? What have you been working towards your whole life that wouldn't be compatible with being a homosexual? It might make her see sense if you ask her this point blank. Be prepared with a list of your goals and go through them with her. It is possible tho that she was referring to spiritual work (i.e. getting into heaven). This is a little trickier. You may want to seek some information ( This is a page detailing bible passages that deal with homosexuality). I am not a Christian and neither are my parents so I didn't have to deal with this aspect of coming out, but there is plenty of information out there, I am sure. Don't go into these discussions with your mother blind. The more you are secure with yourself, the more you can address any irrational fears she may have.
She insisted that I'm not gay; she said that I have never dated a girl (and suggested that I lack "people skills") and have no idea what I'm talking about. She insists that I may like girls, but I've been too insecure to date them.
Others here have brought up this point, but it cannot be stressed enough. Ask her if she "knew" she was attracted to males before she ever dated one. Ask her if she really thinks that if you were insecure with girls, what makes her think that you wouldn't be insecure with guys, too? Ask her why she thinks it would be easier for you to be attracted to guys - does she think you want to hurt her over something you aren't sure about?
She insists that because I'm only eighteen that my developing brain is in no position to make decisions about my life. She gave me several detriments of being a homosexual, which included disease, psychological problems, that it's "unnatural", and the societal consequences ("You'll be put into a group," she says.)
Again, educate yourself and go back and address these issues with her. Let me help you get started.
Disease: Being gay does not automatically put you at further risk for disease. A promiscuous sex life, however, does. This doesn't matter if you are gay or straight. Having anonymous sex, "one night stands," and/or multiple sex partners without protection does put you at risk for STDs no matter who you are having sex with. It is possible to have monogamous relationships as a homosexual. Indeed, most of the gay men I know do just that (and I live in NYC!). It is also possible to date and have sexual experiences outside of a relationship as long as you are smart about it. Go to gay health sites and educate yourself.
Psychological problems: Often these problems stem from a caustic relationship with one's parents after coming out or from having to hide one's sexuality from their parents (or everyone...some people have deeper closets than others). Other issues one may have besides this are often aggravated by not being able to discuss one's life fully with those who matter most to them. I love how the very people who cause alot of the hardship, anger and bitterness expressed by many homosexuals then turn around and use it against them. The improtant thing is to be OK with yourself and if your mother (or others) never accept you, you need to accept that and move on. Try not to be bitter about it (can't always be done and there will always be times when you dwell on it, that's OK, too) and just live your life in a way that makes you happy. Hopefully she'll come around, tho.
Unnatural: This one is just silly. We all do things that are "unnatural" every day. But just what is "unnatural?" As described in another thread, everything is natural as in guided and controlled by natural, physical laws. This point is not really all that important, but you can ponder it all you want.
Societal consequences: Explain to her (calmly) that she is a part of the problem, then. Also explain to her that it is unlikely that you would "choose" to be a part of a "group" that so many people revile. Why would you, or anyone, do such a thing? Tell her about PFLAG and help her see how she can be a part of the solution.
She ended our argument by saying that she'll never condone or accept it. All during this, she was occasionally breaking down in tears; and when she cries, I can't help it, either.
It's OK to cry. It shows how much you love your mother. This must be really hard for you and I sympathize greatly. Everytime I hear coming out stories like yours I make sure to call my parents and thank them for being so accepting and loving. I hope that one day you can do the same.
"Young lady, I know what Bert is going through. It's the loneliest feeling in the world. It's like walking down an empty street listening to your own footsteps. But all you have to do is to knock on any door and say, 'If you'll let me in, I'll live the way you want me to live and I'll think the way you want me to think', and all the blinds will go up and all the doors will open, and you will never be lonely ever again." -Spencer Tracy
I hope I don't do that for anybody.
I sincerely hope so, too. I've seen first hand the devastation wrought from denying yourself. There is an emptiness and a sadness and lots of anger that stems from trying to be someone you are not in order to please someone else. I wish you all the best.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by taylor_31, posted 06-08-2007 7:14 PM taylor_31 has not replied

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 18 of 240 (404744)
06-09-2007 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by taylor_31
06-08-2007 3:00 PM


your parents love you and think that they know what is best for you. they may or may not. so understand that as hurtful as what your parents say, it is with the best of intentions. now, we all know how useful intentions are. so bear that in mind.
since you're almost out of high school, i'd recommend that you sit on it with your parents and try to go to college away from home.
it's not possible to learn to like anyone. it is possible that you might meet a girl that you do like, though. i'm not recommending that you deny what you may be, but i'm personally bothered by people who lock themselves into a box. i don't advise a great deal of "experiementing" in school, but do meet lots of people and learn new things. but i'm not really the best person to ask about this. talk to people who are sympathetic. tallk to people who have been through this. but as someone else said, try to avoid people who would push you in either direction.
take the time to figure yourself out. you might be surprised at who you meet. if you learn that this is in fact who you are, your parents will either get used to it, or they won't. it doesn't change your value as a person. and i don't know what you believe, but who they think god is doesn't change who he really is.
you haven't failed your parents. you haven't failed yourself.
but for god sakes, whatever you do, be smart and be safe. disease is a big danger. but it's a danger no matter who you decide you like.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by taylor_31, posted 06-08-2007 3:00 PM taylor_31 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by nator, posted 06-10-2007 6:13 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
taylor_31
Member (Idle past 5924 days)
Posts: 86
From: Oklahoma!
Joined: 05-14-2007


Message 19 of 240 (404840)
06-10-2007 2:09 AM


Thanks again, everybody, for the awesome advice. It's really uplifting.
My mom and I are in a strained and formal relationship. She has talked to my dad, and she says that they are going to make me quit my job, get me away from my gay friend, and make me work for my dad in the oil field. Gawd almighty
She insists that everybody goes through things like this, but they have to "work through them". It's just a phase!, she says. I've struggled with this for twelve years, and I don't think it's a "phase".
I have no doubt I'll be just as insecure around boyfriends as I am around girls; I think that stems from my personality. I'm just not that promiscuous! However, I think it'll be easier for me to seek out someone I'm actually sexually attracted to, rather than someone who society tells me to pursue.
I'm going to binge on some Fritos now.
Thanks for the amazing help

Replies to this message:
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 Message 24 by macaroniandcheese, posted 06-10-2007 10:46 AM taylor_31 has not replied
 Message 26 by DorfMan, posted 06-10-2007 10:56 AM taylor_31 has not replied
 Message 28 by AZPaul3, posted 06-10-2007 12:11 PM taylor_31 has not replied
 Message 30 by RAZD, posted 06-10-2007 6:01 PM taylor_31 has not replied
 Message 31 by Coragyps, posted 06-10-2007 8:15 PM taylor_31 has not replied
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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 20 of 240 (404848)
06-10-2007 6:13 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by macaroniandcheese
06-09-2007 1:53 PM


quote:
your parents love you and think that they know what is best for you. they may or may not. so understand that as hurtful as what your parents say, it is with the best of intentions. now, we all know how useful intentions are. so bear that in mind.
Actually, I will interject here and say that parents don't always have the best of intentions. Sometimes they are just insecure and selfish and are primarily concerned with how their child's actions reflect back on them.
Some parents are not interested in teaching or guiding or mentoring their children, per se, but in controlling them because doing so is one of the (sometimes the only) way they can get a sense of control over their own lives.
Parents are people just like everyone else, and a lot of them have issues and baggage and really don't do a good job as parents. They are damaged and are wrapped up in their own pain, and their children become part of their fucked up emotional world.
Love the rest of your post, but just wanted to throw this into the mix.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by macaroniandcheese, posted 06-09-2007 1:53 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 21 of 240 (404850)
06-10-2007 6:18 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by taylor_31
06-10-2007 2:09 AM


quote:
She has talked to my dad, and she says that they are going to make me quit my job, get me away from my gay friend, and make me work for my dad in the oil field. Gawd almighty
Oh yeah, because working around a lot of rugged, sweaty, muscular men will make all of your gayness go away, yes in-deedy!
LOL!
Oh, and BTW, I never, not even once, was confused about the fact that I was attracted to boys. (I'm a woman)
So no, "everybody" doesn't go through a "phase" like that.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by taylor_31, posted 06-10-2007 2:09 AM taylor_31 has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 240 (404869)
06-10-2007 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by taylor_31
06-08-2007 3:00 PM


I probably would be making a big mistake to come out and then be wrong about it!
Though I have no expertise with your situation...
Don't come out, ever. I don't know of any heterosexual people who run around telling all their friends that they're straight. I really don't see the need for you to run around telling your friends that you're not.
Just go about your business as if everyone around you were also gay; would you feel a need to tell them then? In your very Christian family, I can see why this is a problem for you in that regard, but I would assume that your true friends, those you really should be concerned with keeping, will not abandon you nor view you differently no matter what your sexual orientation. You don't need to have a coming-out ceremony or anything like that; just mentioning it in casual conversation”while it will shock some”should be sufficient. Let's say they all want to hook you up with the hot new foreign exchange student... well, just tell them that you're into guys instead.
I think you're making a big deal out of something that is society's problem. I wish you the best of luck in making your mother understand, but that will only come with the passing of time. Don't let anyone influence you, not even from here, and just be you.
Jon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by taylor_31, posted 06-08-2007 3:00 PM taylor_31 has replied

Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 23 of 240 (404874)
06-10-2007 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by nator
06-10-2007 6:13 AM


true enough.

This message is a reply to:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 24 of 240 (404875)
06-10-2007 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by taylor_31
06-10-2007 2:09 AM


She insists that everybody goes through things like this, but they have to "work through them". It's just a phase!, she says.
maybe your mom is a lesbian. generally people try to generalize their experiences on the population. so maybe she just assumed everyone went through it since she couldn't talk to anyone about it in her family.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by taylor_31, posted 06-10-2007 2:09 AM taylor_31 has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 25 of 240 (404876)
06-10-2007 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by taylor_31
06-08-2007 3:00 PM


The mysteries of life
taylor_31 writes:
So what do you think I should do? Is it possible that she's right and I am deluding myself? Perhaps I am confused; perhaps I'm relying too heavily on my friend and his influence; and I probably would be making a big mistake to come out and then be wrong about it! Is it possible to learn to like girls? Or am I stupid for even thinking such a dumb thought?
Taylor, allow me to give you my 2 cents worth since I have dealt with similar feelings as you have my entire life.
First, I am a Christian. I have heard many opinions in this controversy, and I have arrived at some rather basic conclusions of my own concerning this topic. I believe that humans cannot help who they are attracted to, or how they feel sexually. That being said, I also believe that there is more to life than physical attraction.
Irregardless of what the Bible says, I don't honestly think that being attracted to another man is any worse than being attracted to a woman.
God made us the way we are, after all. There has to be a reason and a rationale behind Gods overall plan and purpose.
I don't think that men are meant to run off and get married, however...although I shall never judge anyone for doing so. I believe that sexuality is a deeper process than just biological attraction.
First of all, don't let anyone tell you that your feelings are wrong.
Second, don't listen to any Christian who doesnt accept you for who you are.
Third, lets all pray for reconciliation with your Mother. She sounds like a sweet woman who is just confused.
Fourth, don't allow your biological urges to dictate the types of relationships you have. Approach relationships cautiously and keep tight with Jesus as you love others. This applies to both men and women.
Fifth, thanks for sharing! You seem like a level headed young man, and I encourage you to live life as best as you can and without any guilt...as long as you know in your heart that you are trying to do your best!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by taylor_31, posted 06-08-2007 3:00 PM taylor_31 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Taz, posted 06-10-2007 5:39 PM Phat has replied

  
DorfMan
Member (Idle past 6081 days)
Posts: 282
From: New York
Joined: 09-08-2005


Message 26 of 240 (404879)
06-10-2007 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by taylor_31
06-10-2007 2:09 AM


quote:
My mom and I are in a strained and formal relationship.
Give her time. It took you a while to accept who you are, it will take her a while to put herself around something she did not in the least expect. In the meantime, make sure she knows you love her as much as ever and ask her if she loves you any less, and I believe she will not disappoint you. Imagine and put yourself into her struggles, it's not easy to get all your hopes dashed, especially about a child. You can assure her that your health is not in jeopardy, because you are dutiful toward it, that what people think cannot possibly affect your life since it surely did not affect hers.
Stay honest with her and by no means allow her to live your life for you. Your road is hard, but so is the road of everyone on this planet. You are not alone. God bless, peace!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by taylor_31, posted 06-10-2007 2:09 AM taylor_31 has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 27 of 240 (404886)
06-10-2007 11:26 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by Jon
06-10-2007 10:26 AM


Don't come out, ever. I don't know of any heterosexual people who run around telling all their friends that they're straight.
What? We all do this, Jon. All straight people "come out", constantly, to everyone around them.
The guy who talks about his weekend in Aspen with his girlfriend just came out about being straight.
Your boss with pictures of his wife and kids on the desk just came out about being straight - he's flaunting it, right in your face, that he's having sex with a woman.
Your buddy who says "damn, Giada de Laurentis is hot to death!" just came out about being straight.
Your problem is that you're so wrapped up in heteronormativity that you don't see these admissions as significant. But here's an experiment. Go an entire week without making any sort of reference to the gender of the person you're attracted to; your spouse or partner. Any indication of that person's gender, or the gender of someone you're attracted to, is "coming out straight." See if you can live by your own advice before telling taylor what to do.
Just go about your business as if everyone around you were also gay
That's what coming out means. It means being able to make conversation about you and your boyfriend seeing Ocean's Thirteen. It means being able to talk about your personal life, like straight people do.

This message is a reply to:
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 28 of 240 (404893)
06-10-2007 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by taylor_31
06-10-2007 2:09 AM


It is unfortunate that there are segments of our society that will give a gay person a difficult time. But Frog’s advise here is correct, Taylor.
In my experiences with gays it is the open ones who are the happy ones.
You have to be comfortable within yourself despite the problems you will encounter from others. To keep this bottled-up, to remain in the closet, makes your life more miserable. It is a form of death.
As for friends and family? The family will get over it (Mom’s can accept just about anything given time. I think it’s genetic.). The friends will either adapt or fade (in which case they weren’t friends to begin with).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by taylor_31, posted 06-10-2007 2:09 AM taylor_31 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 29 of 240 (404933)
06-10-2007 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
06-10-2007 10:46 AM


Re: The mysteries of life
Phat, what I'm about to say could be seen as mean, but someone has to say it eventually.
Phat writes:
Taylor, allow me to give you my 2 cents worth since I have dealt with similar feelings as you have my entire life.
There's a difference between your feelings and his. He has decided to embrace his feelings while you've spent the better part of your life thinking it's a sin to be attracted to another person of the same sex. You've only changed your mind in this matter the last year or so, and even then you still feel it's somehow unnatural. So, please, spare us your christian 2 cents.
I believe that humans cannot help who they are attracted to, or how they feel sexually. That being said, I also believe that there is more to life than physical attraction.
Phat, you yourself have decided (whether consciously or unconsciously) to remain celebate because you've had homosexual feelings all your life and for as long as you could remember you'd always thought it was against god's will.
If you think abstaining from sex or denying your sexuality for the rest of your life will bring you closer to god, god bless you. But please spare us your preaching how sex will take you away from god and all of that.
Irregardless of what the Bible says, I don't honestly think that being attracted to another man is any worse than being attracted to a woman.
Forgive me for saying this, but if you would do a search for your very old posts, you will find that you once sounded like riverrat and buzsaw on this. I think you've gone a long way, but you still have a lot to learn about human sexuality, especially since you've decided to remain celebate.
Why you feel sex will take you away from god, I will continue to try to understand.
I don't think that men are meant to run off and get married, however...although I shall never judge anyone for doing so. I believe that sexuality is a deeper process than just biological attraction.
Then please, don't share you opinion, especially to someone that is in a transition state like the starter of the OP and is vulnerable emotionally. What you have done is a vile act. You've taken advantage of this young man's vulnerable moment in life and try to preach your message against sex.
First of all, don't let anyone tell you that your feelings are wrong.
Second, don't listen to any Christian who doesnt accept you for who you are.
Third, lets all pray for reconciliation with your Mother. She sounds like a sweet woman who is just confused.
No, his mother sounds like all the other bigot christians I've known all my life.
Fourth, don't allow your biological urges to dictate the types of relationships you have. Approach relationships cautiously and keep tight with Jesus as you love others. This applies to both men and women.
There you go with the preaching again.
We all know what you're trying to hint, that sex is somehow nasty and will take a person away from god. Please go after someone else to share your wonderful revelation. Targeting a young man that is in a transition state and is probably emotionally vulnerable to suggestion makes you look like every other christian bigot out there.
Again, I'm sorry for picking on you, but this young man doesn't need another idealistic opinion from someone that knows nothing about sex or human sexuality... or anything non-christian.
Let me summarize the positions of those who are against homosexuality. NJ is convinced that people can't really find happiness in homosexuality, therefore he's going to do his best to make sure that they don't find happiness in homosexuality. Buzsaw thinks it's an abomination as is stated in the OT. Riverrat thinks it's sin against god and nature and that he will never tolerate it if one of his children is gay. Phat is against it because attraction of any kind toward another person takes you away from god.
My advice is this. Whether it's moral or immoral depends on who's doing the talking. One thing is certain is that one's sexuality cannot be changed. I tried for a long time to become a homosexual. It never worked. If a straight guy like me who was more than willing to sleep with other guys and change my sexuality without any success, why should I expect a gay guy to be able to change his sexuality?
Just remember that it's harder being gay in this society because of people like riverrat, buzsaw, NJ, and perhaps Phat who are willing to do anything to make sure that gay people will find it hard to be themselves. It's been a tough road for many Americans to try to find acceptance in a society that is suppose to be the role model for human freedom for the pursuit of happiness, and as far as I can see it will be a tough long road ahead.
If you are willing to hang in there, you will one day find happiness in life. Don't give up! Just remember that if god is willing to throw you in hell for being who you are, then he is not the god you or I would want to worship.


We are BOG. Resistance is voltage over current.
Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 06-10-2007 10:46 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by taylor_31, posted 06-10-2007 11:59 PM Taz has replied
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 30 of 240 (404939)
06-10-2007 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by taylor_31
06-10-2007 2:09 AM


She has talked to my dad, and she says that they are going to make me quit my job, get me away from my gay friend, and make me work for my dad in the oil field. Gawd almighty.
This could be a very dangerous position for you. You need to consider your personal safety.
Tell your mom and dad that you'll only agree to this with the understanding that they realize that this may mean that you may be injured or worse (intentionally) by a co-worker. This has to be up front, because it won't stay hidden to everyone, and you think the best protection is to tell everyone that you are gay.
I wish you luck with them. Personally I think they need counseling, and NOT by a minister, by a social worker.
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
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