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Author | Topic: Cancer Survivors | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
nator Member (Idle past 2192 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Here's the thing buz. Unless you can show me the evidence, your claims mean nothing. Absolutely nothing. You have given no reason whatsoever for anyone to believe you. You make claim after claim after claim but never, ever support them with actual evidence when asked. I am just glad that RAZD has a good head on his shoulders and isn't likely to just believe your vague assurances and baseless, quack health claims. You are full of hot air, my friend, and are lazy to boot.
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nator Member (Idle past 2192 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: By what method was it discovered that certain foods were more nutritious than others, and that certain foods contain anti-cancer compounds? What method of inquiry was used, Buz?
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DorfMan Member (Idle past 6103 days) Posts: 282 From: New York Joined: |
quote:Is it not logical to determine that certain foods are more healthful than others? Yes, healthful food makes you fart and gives new meaning to togetherness, but you can most certainly avoid the carcinogens in animal flesh and many additives. There is so much time and effort taken about diet and health, there must be reasons. I don't know if RAZ has spoken with a hospital dietician, but it won't hurt for him to do so. We are what we eat, you must have noticed.Forbidden As for Buz? I'm with him on taking care about what I eat. Edited by DorfMan, : don't need the link twice
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I don't know if RAZ has spoken with a hospital dietician,... Every day here, in planning meals for the next day based on needs and appetite.
Is it not logical to determine that certain foods are more healthful than others? Yes, but healthful for aspect (A) may not be healthful for aspect (B), and some people may be affected different from other (think allergies). This makes holistic problematical. thanks Edited by RAZD, : . by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Californian Seventh-day Adventist men live an average of 8.9 years longer than other Californian men. Adventist women in California live an average of 7.5 years longer than other women in that state.10 Dutch Seventh-day Adventist men live an average of 8.9 years longer than other Dutch men. Adventist women in Holland live an average of 3.7 years longer than other women in that country.11 Norwegian Seventh-day Adventist men live an average of 4.2 years longer than other Norwegian men. Adventist women in Norway live an average of 1.9 years longer than other Norwegian women.12 Polish Seventh-day Adventist men live an average of 9.5 years longer than other Polish men. Adventist women in Poland live an average of 4.5 years longer than other women in that nation.13 These findings have caught the attention of other researchers and government officials. T. Oberlin of Harvard University, speaking of the Adventist advantage, stated, “Such an increase in life expectancy at these adult ages is greater than all of the gains in life expectancy made in the past 60 years in this country as a result of all the advances in medical skills and knowledge, plus innumerable improvements of the environment in which man lives.” In 1980, Sidney Katz, a Canadian official, reviewed the data on the benefits of the Adventist lifestyle and said, “I’ve got some advice on how to improve the health of the Canadians, and at the same time, cut billions of dollars off our annual health costs. I think we should study the lifestyle of adherents of the Seventh-day Adventist Church and then explore ways and means of persuading the public to emulate the Adventists in at least some ways.” Page not found — Dialogue BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1489 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
What other groups, though? Just other religions?
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molbiogirl Member (Idle past 2664 days) Posts: 1909 From: MO Joined: |
Here are the cites from the article Buz pointed out.
10. The Adventist Health Study, School of Health, Loma Linda University, Loma Linda, California, 1978. 11. J. Berkel and F. DeWaard, “Mortality Pattern and Life Expectancy of Seventh-day Adventists in the Netherlands,” International Journal of Epidemiology 12 (1983):455-459. 12. H. Waaler and P. F. Hjort, “Hoyere levealder hos Norske Adventister 1960-1977: Er budskap om livstil og hels? (Low Mortality Among Norwegian Seventh-day Adventists, 1960-1977: A Message on Lifestyle and Health),” Tedsskr Nor Laegeforen 101 (1981): 623-627. 13. W. Jedrychowski, B. Tobiasz-Adamczyk, A. Olma, and P. Gradziliewicz, “Survival Rates Among Seventh-day Adventists Compared With the General Population in Poland,” Scandinavian Journal of Socialised Medicine, 13 (1985): 49-52.
Here's the abstract for the second cite. It appears the authors concluded that "no cigarette smoking" was the reason SDA live longer (with a smidge of less colon cancer thrown in). I'd like to note that in the 24 years since this paper was published, it has been cited 3 times. The first cite is not to be found in pubmed.
This cite, however, is found in pubmed: Serum cholesterol levels of Seventh-day Adventists. Nothing special in these results. SDA not so different from ordinary folks. And there is this cite in pubmed: Blood pressure in Seventh-day Adventist vegetarians. Again. Nothing special. SDA bp was less than ordinary folks, but the authors don't have any specific reason why.
It appeared unlikely that these differences could be explained by differences in alcohol, tobacco, tea, coffee or egg consumption, socioeconomic status or physical activity. The third cite, again. Nowhere to be found. However, this cite is a reprint of an American Journal of Epidemiology article entitled: Coronary Risk Factors in Norwegian Seventh-day Adventists: A Study of 247 Seventh-day Adventists and Matched Controls. No difference in men, some in women. The fourth cite can be found here. SDA men and women live longer. This one held up to its promise. But I also found this: Cancer incidence in norwegian seventh-day adventists 1961 to 1986. Is the cancer-life-style association overestimated? Nada. Bupkis. SDA no better than general population. I'm sure I could keep looking, but so far, the evidence is far from overwhelming. I would even venture to say inconclusive.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
On average. What about the maximum lives? What you could be seeing is a product of statistics (large diverse sample versus small homogeneous sample) rather than life-style. To make a fair comparison you would have to compare it to people with similar health regimens (re smoking and drinking say), and you should also compare it to other religious groups (buddhist monks, catholic nuns, etc).
Enjoy Edited by RAZD, : . by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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nator Member (Idle past 2192 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
quote: Sure. But how do we figure that out? What method do we use? How do we discover how and why certain compounds (like antioxidants) found in some foods tend to prevent cancer and other ailments? Some populations consume lots of what we in the west would consider "bad for us", yet have a longer life expectancy, and generally less disease. I've mentioned the Okinowans to you before, some of the most long-lived and disease-free people on earth also consume pork nearly every day. The French smoke a lot and eat a lot of saturated fat as a percentage of their diet, but have less heart disease than Americans. The Swiss eat twice as much chocolate per year as Americans, yet their incidence of diabetes is far, far less that Americans'. Deciding what food is "bad" and what is "good", and in what proportions one should eat anything, if at all, is a rather complex equation.
quote: There are carcinogens in certain vegetables too, you know. And saturated fats and other compounds known to be detrimental to health. We evolved to eat animal protein. That's why strict vegans usually have to take supplemental synthetic vitamins to get what their bodies require (vegans have a hard time getting B vitamins).
quote: It's the other way around, you know. The reason people take so much time and effort with their diet and health is because science has been steadily teasing out the biochemistry, bit by bit, and has then informed the practical nutrition and medical fields.
quote: I take care in what I eat, too, but I do not base my food choices upon myth and misinformation like you and he
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I'm unplugged and out of the slammer and ensconced at my half-way house, starting a 30 day period of isolation and observation to see how my recovery continues. Tomorrow I can start walks in the neighborhood (with mask and glove for protection).
I'm feeling pretty good, though not my full self yet (one flight of stairs bags me) Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : . by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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Asgara Member (Idle past 2324 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: |
Great to hear RAZD!! Keep it up and you'll be back on the bike in no time.
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DorfMan Member (Idle past 6103 days) Posts: 282 From: New York Joined: |
quote:Do you feel a bit like Jacko?
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
more like ... acoustic ... in touch ... and Havin a Party ..
Edited by RAZD, : . by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
schraf writes: We evolved to eat animal protein. That's why strict vegans usually have to take supplemental synthetic vitamins to get what their bodies require (vegans have a hard time getting B vitamins). That's just not true, madear. Brown rice, whole grain cereals, soybeans & other legumes, potatoes, peanuts, brewer's yeast, peas, green leafy vegies, sweet corn, berries, oranges & other citrus, nuts & seeds all are sources of B vits sufficient enough to not require any suppliments at all. Btw, I'm quite sure that none of our B vit supplements are synthetic. According to the labels, they are derived from extracts of plants. We purposefully avoid synthetic vitamin suppliments. ABE: I'm sure cows & deer get plenty of B vits from grass & whatever plant food they are able to consume. That makes it nice. Tataway they don't need to consume some of their offspring or stomp field mice for their Bs. Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given. Edited by Buzsaw, : spelling Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given. BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW. The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1427 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Btw, I'm quite sure that none of our B vit supplements are synthetic. According to the labels, they are derived from extracts of plants. We purposefully avoid synthetic vitamin suppliments. Irrelevant. They are still concentrated far more than found in foods, even the ones you list. Of course eating bugs would help increase the B vit in your diet, and is one of the things that primates and apes (and aborigines) do. You would not need the B vit supplements from any source if diet were sufficient.
I'm sure cows & deer get plenty of B vits from grass & whatever plant food they are able to consume. Irrelevant: we don't eat grass and cannot process it in our stomachs the way cows and deer do. We are, however, neither carnivorous nor herbivorous, but omnivorous. Chimps are occasional meat eaters and will hunt for it. Americans may eat too much meat, but meat is a part of the normal human diet and has been for some time. Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : . by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. • • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •
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