Keys writes:
We observed Jesus getting up from the dead. We have evidence.
What are you observations and what evidence do you have?
One really can't tell, can one, about things of the spirit, if one is dead to the spiritual? Being born again of the spirit allows us, I believe, to begin to tell.
I would have no trouble finding two individuals that fully and sincerely believe they are born again and "spiritually alive" but will be diametrically opposed on many issues. So how do you reconcile this?
Iceage writes:
If that is your criteria then the Gemstones mentioned above are a true miracle, since the church and others feel it is *very real* and science has nothing to say about it (although you can buy similar looking stones on ebay).
Keys writes:
How would I know. If I judged that, I would speak, as you do, from ignorance. Why would I do that? I prefer to know what I am talking about.
I do not speak from ignorance. I have done due diligence. The gemstones are most probably Zircon from China, they are available on Ebay. Members of the church are taking it on faith and *testimony* these are true miracles.
I would prefer to see the specific gravity.
Iceage writes:
Actually you are wrong in one way, as science has proven the inefficiency of prayer. Several scientific studies have recently looked into the efficiency of prayer in relationship to healing and have found in most cases no effect is statistically significant.
Keys writes:
They stabbed in the dark, and I would no more take their word for the spiritual goings on than I would take a tour from a blind man.
I suspect you have spent no time reading the studies. They are carefully controlled double blind experiments. I also suspect you put more faith, than you are letting on, in the scientific process. Every time you rely on modern medical treatment you are putting confidence in the process that led to the development of that treatment - or don't you trust that either and prefer you demon filled world for healing.
Iceage writes:
If one religious outlook yielded success in pray for say healing that group would stand out in mass statistical aggregation. For example, if praying to Christian God yielded occasional healing than Christian countries would fair better than say secular societies like the Japanese or societies that are counter religious to your view such as India.
Keys writes:
Believers do fare pretty good, but healing is not guaranteed. It is a bonus, and there needs to be several factors in place. That is one reason a random sample is useless.
Ah the Japanese have a life expectancy of over 5 years more than Americans, yet the majority claim they are not religious and the rest are mostly Buddhists or Shintoists. If Christians prayers are effective then maybe they are negatively correlated.
BTW, random samples are not useless if you have a statistic significant sampling.
Iceage writes:
And why never a restored limb? Is God powerless to effect such a change?
Keys writes:
That is nothing. I think He did some of that, and will do more in the coming days. It does seem a little unusual, but God specializes in that sort of thing if need be.
Restoring a limb is nothing? Hmmmm. So while your God goes around answering Christian prayers for all sorts he just never got around to restoring a limb yet because he has not specialized in that.
The evangelicals, Jeff Jansen and Patricia King of Global
Fire ministries who promote the Gemstone miracles, also claim people being healed with new set of lungs and eyes and gold crowned teeth - but sadly for the amputees, no new limbs.
You choice of words such as "Specialized" is odd. The creator of the universe needs to "specialize" in this sort of thing? Wow your vision of god is smaller than I thought.
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