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Author Topic:   Please - Some Impartial Advice Needed
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 86 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 91 of 240 (405679)
06-14-2007 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Buzsaw
06-13-2007 11:57 PM


Re: Buzsaw Weighing In Here
1. Clearly the Bible in both the Old Testament and the New Testament teaches that any deviant form of sex is sinful, restricting sexual activity strictly between a husband and a wife.

Or your father if he is drunk.

2. Homosexuality is not natural.

All sins are natural.

3. What's normal pertaining to our bodies is best.

I normally like to masturbate, and do many harmful things to my body.

4. What is abnormal is naturally rejected, unacceptable and repulsive to the majority of society,

Cancer is pretty normal, and look how we handle it.
I don't see anyone looking for a cure for homosexuality (anymore).

5. This lifestyle has been unlawful in many cultures and nations throughout history.

So was speaking your mind on an open forum, still is in some countries.

6. Sex outside of marriage has a history of initiating health problems.

So two virgin males who get married should have no problems then.

Bad things like rape, murder, unwanted pregnancy, venerial disease et al happen when folks have no inhibitions.

Well if either him or his boyfriend weren't born with anything, and they both enver contracted anything, then they should be fine, unless they start raping each other.

8. Parents are generally more experienced, wiser and more knowledgeable than children. They generally love their children and advocate what's really best for them. My advice is to honor, love and obey them so long as you are under their roof with a good attitude towards these who've worked hard to feed you, provide your home, take care of you and protect you all your life.

I agree with you, that you should honor your parents, but only if they are worth honoring. Too many parents today abuse their children, both mentally and physically.

9. The Bible is a reliable source for morality, religion, fulfilled prophecy, social guidance and everything else pertaing to life.

The bible is confusing as shit.
The bible is useless, unless you are seeking God, and asking God to explain things to you. No matter what we will never understand everything that is in the "good book". All we can do is make up what we think it means.
It is God that will grow us.

You don't feel if taylor seeks God, and God thinks it is wrong to be gay, that God will let him know, and even change him?

10. Some are suggesting that all the female hormones given to cows and other animals which provide our food supply are a factor in the present phenomenon of increased homosexuality.

This is all here say. I have found throughout life, that I am amazed at the amount of people that are gay, or bi. It is only now that it is becoming safer to come out, that it appears there are more.

I'd be more willing to accept that children who are abused sexually, and bad parenting would be more of a cause of someone being gay than cows milk. But that is not proven either.
No matter what, I believe some people are just born that way.

11. I personally know a young man who had similar feelings as you. He was a Christian and asked me what God thought about homosexuality. I showed him where Biblically it was a sinful practice and that God abhored it to the point of destroying cities in which it was rampant and including it in the death penalty for Jews under the Mosaic Levitical Law et al.
He never mentioned it again to me but went on to marry a fine woman and raise a family. His urge left him. This happens often and it is not impossible to go natural regardless of one's urges.

I know someone also, who decided similar. But deep inside he will always have those desires. Let's hope neither one has a homosexual relationship, and then hurts their whole family.

I don't think you can ever get rid of those desires. I myself have many sinful desires. The only thing that stops me, is God. But will forever be a battle in my mind.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Buzsaw, posted 06-13-2007 11:57 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 86 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 92 of 240 (405680)
06-14-2007 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by nator
06-14-2007 6:57 AM


Re: The mysteries of life
Now you are confusing me.
My exact quote:
Man and woman becomes one, seems to be more difficult than man, and man.

So yes, I am saying that man and woman are more difficult. How much more difficult is it to understand the opposite species? And then try to get along for a life time?

I would think men, would have an easier time at understand other men, than woman-man.

To me, it is almost like an unfair advantage.

In short, people of the same gender usually have a much easier time understanding one another on many levels and it is more difficult, not less, for a mixed gender couple to learn to understand the other.

Yes, that is what I am saying. pffft.

The government should generally not be legislating morality. Certainly not anything relating to what is being discussed in this thread.

well I guess we were on the subject of gay marriage there for a sec.

I think all laws are a reflection of our morality.
Look over in the middle east where you can lose a hand for stealing, over here that would be immoral.

The reason I mentioned you having five children is because you said you were not worried about overpopulation and in fact didn't really ever think about it. I mentioned the number of children that you have because it is not surprising to me that someone who has a large number of children probably hasn't thought about the very serious issue of overpopulation. Just keep pumping them out.

nator, you know nothing about me. So stop pretending.

I have 3 of my own. I had one with an ex, then met my current wife, and we had two more. I love kids, and want to have at least two in my life.
The other two, came with my wife, and I love them. One is handicap, and is the best kid in the world. All of them receive there needs in life. It's not like we have an overpopulation problem here in America.

Once I got my children, I cut my nuts, so as not to make too many. I think that is fair.

and then look at your children and not be frightened for them or your decendents?

I am always frightened for them, sheesh.

Someone who says that, and also has lots of children, and says he never thought about the impact of overpopulation on the planet, really doesn't appear to care about the fate of their great grandchildren and beyond.

If I didn't have kids, then there might not be any rational people left on the planet. :)

I saved the planet, there, pffft


This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by nator, posted 06-14-2007 6:57 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by nator, posted 06-14-2007 9:33 PM riVeRraT has responded

  
anglagard
Member
Posts: 2189
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 93 of 240 (405683)
06-14-2007 11:17 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by Buzsaw
06-13-2007 11:57 PM


Re: Buzsaw Weighing In Here
Buzsaw writes:

Hi Taylor. Welcome to EvC. Without resorting to hate speech on homosexuality I want to list a few facts for you to consider.

One thing that can be said for you Buzsaw is that you are consistent. First you dishonor RobinRohan's memory with your IMO disgusting condemnation and now you have the gall to lecture Taylor on the supposed error of his ways in what, for him, is a most difficult time.

How is it that when I read the New Testament I see a core message of love and forgiveness, yet you seem to read the core message as one of taking any and every opportunity to condemn others and appear self-righteous?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Buzsaw, posted 06-13-2007 11:57 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
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subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 94 of 240 (405691)
06-14-2007 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by anglagard
06-14-2007 11:17 AM


Re: Buzsaw Weighing In Here
angla, did you know that over 60% of all motor vehicle accidents in the world are caused by the same defective part of the car?

The nut that holds the steering wheel.

I think it's appropriate to keep that fact in mind when comparing Buz's use of the bible with that of most thinking christians.


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by anglagard, posted 06-14-2007 11:17 AM anglagard has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Taz, posted 06-14-2007 1:08 PM subbie has responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1458 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 95 of 240 (405704)
06-14-2007 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by subbie
06-14-2007 12:05 PM


Re: Buzsaw Weighing In Here
Subbie, while I understand that there are christians that actually love the way christ taught it, I can't recall at all the last time I heard of or saw a christian rally to support gay rights or a christian rally to protest against christians that want to take away gay rights. In fact, I can't remember the last time I heard or saw any christian at all publically talk in front of a camera or in front of a crowd denouncing the christian bigots.

In fact, a couple years ago I attended a town meeting on the issue of gay marriage. Most of the people that went were professed christians. One particular christian stood up and proclaimed that "homosexuality causes more teenage pregnancy." Not one christian said anything or did anything to counter this guy's claim.

Ok, so there are thinking christians out there that are not bigots. But quite simply put, the fact that each year more and more states have passed legislations to ban any form of civil union for gay people tells me that either the "quiet majority" crowd just simply doesn't care or it doesn't really exist.

What I consistently see is that us atheists and "them gays" are left to fight this battle on our own on issues of human rights.

So, how do you expect us to keep the nut and steering wheel thing in mind when we don't actually see you guys do anything to counter your christian brothers?



We are BOG. Resistance is voltage over current.

Disclaimer:

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by subbie, posted 06-14-2007 12:05 PM subbie has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by subbie, posted 06-14-2007 3:28 PM Taz has responded
 Message 102 by riVeRraT, posted 06-14-2007 5:47 PM Taz has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30988
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 4.4


Message 96 of 240 (405715)
06-14-2007 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by taylor_31
06-08-2007 3:00 PM


Ignore the Bigotted posts
Taylor, as a Christian I applaud and support you regardless of your sexuality. Gay or straight, just try to be the best person you can be. Please ignore those posts from Christians here who seem to condemn you, the God they have created is but a small, picayune devil that enjoys tormenting folk. Their God is more like heat rash than something to be feared or worshiped.

If you get a chance, get in touch with Gene Robinson through the link I supplied back in Message 6. He really is a man of God and will completely understand what you are now going through. Who knows, you might even be able to help him carry his cross.

The world today is filled with bigots and unfortunately, many of them are Christians. In fact many of the most vocal are Christians. If though, you wish to try to continue exploring being a Gay Christians, there are resources that can help you.

As mentioned above, there is Gene Robinson who is the Bishop of NH and openly gay in a long term relationship.

There is also The Christian Alliance for Progress

and

Katherine Jefferts Schori who is the Primate of the Episcopal Church in the US and is very supportive of the problems faced by the Gay community.

Edited by jar, : you ---> your

Edited by jar, : r ---> on right you

Edited by jar, : more appalin spallin


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 240 (405728)
06-14-2007 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Buzsaw
06-13-2007 11:57 PM


Re: Buzsaw Weighing In Here
This looks like fun! Here's a few more facts we should probably all keep in mind.

1. Clearly, there's no God. So that's pretty funny.

2. Wiping your ass is not natural. Stop immediately. As an added bonus, the crust and the smell will drive away anyone who tries to do... well, pretty much anything beneath your waist.

3. You should probably avoid the dentist if you have a cavity. Putting metal in your teeth is not normal, and what is normal is what is best for our bodies. This also has an added bonus, in that it will drive away anybody who wants to do anything to your mouth.

4. There are a lot of bigoted people in the world, who find someone different than them unacceptable. Unfortunately, since there are a lot of them, they're automatically right. This is why it's okay to beat up the only black kid in an all-white town.

5. Before the American civil war, it was morally wrong to stop a man from beating his slave. That's the law, mister. And it was the law for a good chunk of history. Even in ancient Greece, and you know the kinds of shenanigans they got up to.

6. Acting severely retarded has a history of initiating health problems. So you probably shouldn't listen to any lists of "facts" you read on the internet.

7. Look, I don't mean to scare you or anything. But if you're gay? Give it... maybe ten minutes. You'll have raped and killed somebody, and contracted a venereal disease.

Oh, and you'll be pregnant. Not sure how that works exactly, but damn it, your lack of inhibition will lead to pregnancy!

8. If you think you might be gay, you should listen to what your parents have to say on the subject. They have way more experience with homosexuality than you do. Espcially if your Mom went to college, or your Dad went to boarding school.

9. The Bible is a reliable source of information for whackjobs who think bats are a kind of bird.

10. The CIA is using Roswell alien technology to beam mind control rays that steal my thoughts. I'm not able to verify anything on this but perhaps there's something to it.

11. I knew a young man once who was Christian. I told him there was no God. He said, "Hey, you're right!"

Then we laughed, and laughed, and laughed.


"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert
This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Buzsaw, posted 06-13-2007 11:57 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
subbie
Member
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 98 of 240 (405729)
06-14-2007 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Taz
06-14-2007 1:08 PM


Re: Buzsaw Weighing In Here
What I consistently see is that us atheists and "them gays" are left to fight this battle on our own on issues of human rights.

So, how do you expect us to keep the nut and steering wheel thing in mind when we don't actually see you guys do anything to counter your christian brothers?

Well, first of all, I'm one of you guys. :)

I certainly agree with your general assessment that the vocal christians are those who speak out against homosexuals and gay marriage. It may well be a reflection of the fact that hate generally gets more attention in the news than love does.

I have suspected for a while that christian hate is getting louder as acceptance of homosexuality is growing. How many times have you heard religious bigots talking about a "culture war?" I fully believe that they think they are fighting a culture war, and that they are losing. And as they see the world changing and leaving them behind, it scares the hell out of them, so they fight harder. Onward, christian soldiers.

To me, the hysterical thing is that they are losing a war where nobody is fighting against them. I don't think most gays want to change the world and remake society. I think they just want the right to lives their lives in peace, with the same right to love who they want to love, to marry who they want to marry, and to be who they are. And, in true christian fashion, I think most of them would be willing to extend to christians that same right. While I'm sure they would like love and acceptance, I'd be willing to bet they'd settle for quiet toleration.


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Taz, posted 06-14-2007 1:08 PM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
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Trixie
Member (Idle past 1873 days)
Posts: 1011
From: Edinburgh
Joined: 01-03-2004


Message 99 of 240 (405742)
06-14-2007 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by taylor_31
06-08-2007 3:00 PM


More Christian support
Taylor, pay no attention to those folks who profess to love God, yet cast stones at anyone they consider to be a "sinner". The only judge is God and He will judge each and every one of us. What tends to get forgotten by many Christians is that God will judge us as a loving father would judge his child. He will look at our lives, our hearts and our minds. If all He finds there is bigotry, intolerance and hate targetted at some of His other children, I don't think He'll be too impressed.

It isn't up to us to make judgements for others on the rightness or wrongness of their behaviour. We should all be looking to ourselves to see how we can improve our behaviour.

On that basis, your sexuality is no-one's business but your own. Pay no heed to those who tell you that you're committing a sin - they need to get the log of intolerance out of their own eye.

Personally, I believe that homosexuality is not a choice, neither is it indicative of psychological problems. I firmly believe that it has a physiological cause which has yet to be discovered. Who knows, genetics will probably play a large role in determining sexuality. Consider this. If genetics does play a determining role, then those who shout that homosexuality is unnatural, is a sin, is evil etc. won't find God very sympathetic. After all it is equivalent to condemning a child with Down's syndrome and telling them to mend their ways.

You have to do what's right for you. You have a right to be happy. Please keep in mind that those of us who are moderate Christians just don't happen to shout as loud as fundamentalists. We're too busy trying to keep on the straight and narrow ourselves without screeching about how sinful other people are. Anyway, as I said before, I have no right to judge what is a sin and what isn't, that's God's job. All I can do is be the best that I can be and that's what you need to do as well.

Good luck with the family problems. I really hope that your mother eventually comes to understand that you are still her son and she has nothing to be ashamed of. You have been courageous in telling anyone and your mother should be proud that she has such a brave son.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by taylor_31, posted 06-08-2007 3:00 PM taylor_31 has not yet responded

  
Michael
Member (Idle past 2805 days)
Posts: 199
From: USA
Joined: 05-14-2005


Message 100 of 240 (405745)
06-14-2007 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Buzsaw
06-13-2007 11:57 PM


insect love
2. Homosexuality is not natural. Whether mankind evolved or whether we were created by God, the natural physiology of our bodies is designed for male and female sex union, both pertaining to the animals and to humans. It's also in the insect world.

Just so you know, virgin births also occur naturally within some species of insects (and other animals)--males are not required for fertilization. For some species of Ephemeroptera, parthenogenesis may be the rule and not just an option (i.e. parthenogenesis may be obligatory rather than facultative).

Is such sexual deviancy in insects a result of the fall do you suppose? Are some insect species more prone to sin than others? Or does the precedent set in the bible make this form of reproduction okay?;)

Cheers.

Edited by Michael, : for clarity and a better subtitle


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Buzsaw, posted 06-13-2007 11:57 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
Modulous
Member (Idle past 271 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 101 of 240 (405746)
06-14-2007 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Rahvin
06-14-2007 1:57 AM


an asside on the character of the US
Actually...the US, being the nation with the highest Christian population in the world

Certainly not by percentages...at least not when it comes to self identification. I think its about 70-80% Christian in the US and Spain is over 90%.

...also has the highest per capita violence (including rape and murder)

Is very very wrong. Thailand (Buddhist) beats the USA on murder as does Russia (non religious), the US is in the mid 20s (1998 - 2000). Canada and Australia beat the US in rape. Spain leads the way in robberies. (Source: Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 - 2000 (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention).

the highest per capita infant mortality rates

Ethiopa: 92 per 1,000 live births.
USA: 6 per 1,000 live births.

(CIA World Factbook).

the highest number of abortions

I believe Russia has double the number of abortions. source.

Some of the LEAST religious nations on Earth (mostly the Scandinavian nations, as I recall) have the LOWEST levels of violence

Finland (about 85% Christian) and Iceland (over 90% Christian) are 11th and 12th highest for assault. Norway (over 90% Christian) is 17th. These statistics are half a decade old - and are debatable, but the big atheist countries places like China, Vietnam and Russia. So while I get your point regarding crime and Christianity the least religious countries don't compare overly favourably from what I can see.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Rahvin, posted 06-14-2007 1:57 AM Rahvin has responded

Replies to this message:
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riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 86 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 102 of 240 (405750)
06-14-2007 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Taz
06-14-2007 1:08 PM


Re: Buzsaw Weighing In Here
I can't recall at all the last time I heard of or saw a christian rally to support gay rights or a christian rally to protest against christians that want to take away gay rights. In fact, I can't remember the last time I heard or saw any christian at all publically talk in front of a camera or in front of a crowd denouncing the christian bigots.

Well, you can start remembering. I just received an email with the following content, and it was addressed to all "prayer warriors" in my church.

quote:

Apostle Dupree,

I am asking for prayer from every Christian that you know. The City of Newark has designated this Week as Gay Pride Week and have a litany of events taking place glorifying homosexuality. The City ‘s Mayor, Cory Booker and Councilwoman Dana Rone who acknowledged that she was gay several months ago RAISED THE GAY FLAG OVER CITY HALL AT A FLAG RAISING CEREMONY. This flag is flying right now. When I think how we were in the City Hall Chambers praising God and now to see this it is so sad. Our City desperately needs prayer and help.

Pastor Bridgeforth


This was my response to them:

What kind of prayer are they asking for? Because I will not be praying for anything but that those people who are gay, that if God doesn't want them to be gay, that they will know, and come to a personal relationship with the Lord, and then the Lord can change them.

If we pray for things like that to be restricted in CITY HALL, then all activities, including our own religious views will be restricted. The same right that gives us our freedom to worship God the way we want, and not be persecuted, is the same right that allows them to be gay. (That is America)

Remember, we all live in sin.
It is our job to love, and not judge, like Jesus.
My 2 cents, :-)

To which our new Pastors reply was:

I know that this is a sensitive issue in many circles, both Christian & non-Christian. However, Scripture is clear that God hates homosexuality (sin) and loves the sinner (all of us) (Rom. 1:18-27; Eph 5:3) . So our prayers should defintely be geared towards these people come to an encounter with Jesus.

What do you think?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Taz, posted 06-14-2007 1:08 PM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 06-14-2007 7:18 PM riVeRraT has responded
 Message 109 by Taz, posted 06-14-2007 8:23 PM riVeRraT has responded

  
Neutralmind
Member (Idle past 4290 days)
Posts: 183
From: Finland
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 103 of 240 (405753)
06-14-2007 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Modulous
06-14-2007 5:14 PM


Re: an asside on the character of the US
Finland (about 85% Christian) and Iceland (over 90% Christian) are 11th and 12th highest for assault. Norway (over 90% Christian) is 17th. These statistics are half a decade old - and are debatable, but the big atheist countries places like China, Vietnam and Russia.

Okay, I had a lot off text written but I feel this is the wrong place to discuss it. Just in future, be more careful when posting stuff like that. In reality, the nordic countries are very atheistic orientated (or at least non-christian).
This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Modulous, posted 06-14-2007 5:14 PM Modulous has responded

Replies to this message:
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Neutralmind
Member (Idle past 4290 days)
Posts: 183
From: Finland
Joined: 06-08-2006


Message 104 of 240 (405754)
06-14-2007 6:28 PM


As for the topic. If you feel you like boys more than girls then what's there to think about, it's who you are. I wish you the best of luck taylor.
    
Rahvin
Member (Idle past 1354 days)
Posts: 3964
Joined: 07-01-2005


Message 105 of 240 (405757)
06-14-2007 7:07 PM
Reply to: Message 101 by Modulous
06-14-2007 5:14 PM


Re: an asside on the character of the US
My apologies, and thanks for the corrections. I was working from memory of an old discussion from months ago - conceeded unless I somehow find my original source.


Every time a fundy breaks the laws of thermodynamics, Schroedinger probably kills his cat.
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