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Author Topic:   Please - Some Impartial Advice Needed
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 164 of 240 (406127)
06-17-2007 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 163 by iano
06-16-2007 8:14 PM


Re: Impartial advice
If you have a point, make it.
Your attempts at clever wordplay are resulting in a mismash of word salad. This is the usual we see from you; you make claims, you are plainly asked to support them, you then avoid answering the questions with a combination of equivocation, redefining terms to suit yourself, and in general obfuscating the conversation with mucking about as much as possible. Then, you run away.
You compared homosexual attraction with being sexually attracted to different species.
These things are not comparable, even if one removes the cultural moral judgements.
Of course, you could explain to me how they are similar, as I asked.
You won't though, and will continue as I have described above.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by iano, posted 06-16-2007 8:14 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 171 by iano, posted 06-18-2007 7:44 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 170 of 240 (406243)
06-18-2007 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 167 by Phat
06-17-2007 4:27 PM


Re: Your pastor is way off in left field.
quote:
Sin is not some grand evil aberration that sends people to Hell. Sin is simply part of human nature.
Sin is a part of human nature? Like, it is a normal thing for us to do?
If God made us to sin as a natural part of ourselves, but then turned around and said ,"Hey, don't sin, even though I made you to sin, because I don't like it.", then that seems quite a bit more than unfair to me.
Why would God stack the deck against us like that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 167 by Phat, posted 06-17-2007 4:27 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Phat, posted 06-18-2007 11:44 AM nator has not replied
 Message 180 by Phat, posted 06-18-2007 12:19 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 172 of 240 (406245)
06-18-2007 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by riVeRraT
06-18-2007 6:37 AM


Re: The mysteries of life
quote:
I am not in favor of the act of gay sex.
Gay sex earns your disfavor. That means you disapprove. It does not have your approval.
You are clearly not neutral wrt gay sex. You have not said that you don't care if people have gay sex. You go beyond being neutral about it and are clearly in the disapproval camp.
That is the same as being against it, rat.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by riVeRraT, posted 06-18-2007 6:37 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by riVeRraT, posted 06-18-2007 11:27 AM nator has replied
 Message 215 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-21-2007 12:24 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 173 of 240 (406246)
06-18-2007 7:54 AM
Reply to: Message 171 by iano
06-18-2007 7:44 AM


Re: Impartial advice
quote:
The point originally made was that: had someone a sexual attraction to x, (where attraction-to-x was peer-reprehensible) then they wouldn't be on here looking for impartial advice.
Yeah, right.
You chose bestiality to compare with homosexuality purely by random, I'm sure.
[/eyeroll]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by iano, posted 06-18-2007 7:44 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by iano, posted 06-18-2007 8:02 AM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 175 of 240 (406248)
06-18-2007 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by riVeRraT
06-17-2007 9:47 AM


Re: The mysteries of life
I said that in response to something you said, rat. YOU are the one bringing competition into the conversation.
quote:
Ok, fine, but I wasn't bringing that up on the premise of competition. I am just pointing out what the facts are, and what they could mean.
But if you didn't want to bring up competition, then why did you talk about the "unfair advantage" that gay couples would have?
Why can't you simply admit that one of the reasons you feel uncomfortable with gay marriage is because they might show up the straights? I mean, clearly that's exactly a fear you have, otherwise you wouldn't have said it.
Also to represent, that homosexual marriage, and heterosexual marriage, are not the same thing. there is an obvious difference.
Again, are you talking about sex as the "obvious" difference?
A marriage between a quadripalegic and someone with an uninjured spinal cord is not the "same thing" sexually as one between two people with uninjured spinal cords, either.
Otherwise, there is no appreciable difference in marriages between straights and gays, other than, as you say, the possibility of a slightly easier time for same-sex couples.
The worlds resources, rat. Food, yes, but also oil, natural gas, water, coal, wood/paper, iron and other metals, various minerals, etc. The average American throws away more stuff in a year than millions of people in the developing world will ever own in their entire lives.
quote:
Again, it is clear that you have no idea how hard it would be to give away that stuff to other nations, if you wanted to.
We don't need to give it away if we just use less of it in the first place. That's what having fewer kids is all about, with regards to making less of an impact on the planet.
What, do you think that America just uses the resources that we find or grow here in the US? When was the last time you bought a pair of sneakers that were made in the US of materials produced entirely in the US? Look at the lavles on all of your clothing, all of the plastics you have in the house, your auto components, your electronics, etc.
There is enough food, and supplies for everyone to exist at this current point in time, ESPECIALLY HERE.
Yes, but that is a very self-centered and short-sighted way to look at the issue of population and the effect it has on the planet.
More Americans = less for everybody else.
How is it unamerican to want the planet to be able to sustain human (which includes American humans) life far into the future?
quote:
Because it is an unwarranted thing to request. Everything is fine.
Unwarranted? You think that the resources of the planet are limitless? That the oil will never run out?
quote:
It is the governments of the world, and the corrupt people of the world that are screwing things up. And that is a percentage thing, not a population thing.
The human population explosion does indeed have an enormous impact on the Earth, rat. How much rainforest has been cut down because people need places to live? How many lives have been lost in the Middle East because people need more and more oil to power their cities and cars?
I will agree with you that governments have been too slow to pick up on the facts of overpopulation and the consequences it has for the planet and our very survival as a species.
Having lots of kids just because you like having them around just doesn't seem like a great reason to have them, is all.
quote:
You assuming that is unAmerican,
No, not really. I am saying that it sounds selfish to have kids because of your own needs and wants.
quote:
it is a free country, and your overpopulation worries, are just opinions. There is nothing that makes your opinion superceed mine.
My overpopulation "worries" are backed up by copious amounts of evidence. You have offered no evidence in support of your reassurances that "everything is fine".
You have already said that you never even thought about overpopulation, let alone informed yourself about the issue, so how on earth would you know if things are "fine"?
Opinions based upon data always supercede those that are pulled out of backsides.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by riVeRraT, posted 06-17-2007 9:47 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by riVeRraT, posted 06-18-2007 11:37 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 183 of 240 (406273)
06-18-2007 3:52 PM
Reply to: Message 176 by riVeRraT
06-18-2007 11:27 AM


Re: The mysteries of life
The statements that you have made in this thread:
quote:
I don't care if people have gay sex,
and
quote:
I am not in favor of the act of gay sex.
Do not mean the same thing.
If I said, "I don't care if mentally-ill people own guns", and then I also said "I am not in favor of mentally ill people owning guns", would you think I was expressing the same opinion in the two statements? No, of course you wouldn't, becasue they are very different opinions.
You say "you don't care" but you keep letting things like "I am not in favor of" slip.
quote:
I have expressed that in other words, give it up already.
You have expressed both opinions, and they are contradictory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by riVeRraT, posted 06-18-2007 11:27 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 184 of 240 (406276)
06-18-2007 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by riVeRraT
06-18-2007 11:37 AM


Re: The mysteries of life
But if you didn't want to bring up competition, then why did you talk about the "unfair advantage" that gay couples would have?
quote:
Because it is, because it is not the same thing.
Right. Becasue of the competitiveness you feel, apparently.
Why can't you simply admit that one of the reasons you feel uncomfortable with gay marriage is because they might show up the straights? I mean, clearly that's exactly a fear you have, otherwise you wouldn't have said it.
quote:
It's not a fear, it's a fact.
Like I said, it is what it is, stop trying to tie emotions to a purely logical statement.
But I have no idea why you would bring such a thing up unless you were concerend about the gays making the straights look bad in the marriage success department.
You are the one who brought up the term "unfair advantage", remember.
You are the one objecting to "unfairness", it seems.
Again, are you talking about sex as the "obvious" difference?
quote:
Again....no.
Shit you are stubborn.
Then what is this "obvious" difference you keep mentioning but never come out and identify?
Otherwise, there is no appreciable difference in marriages between straights and gays, other than, as you say, the possibility of a slightly easier time for same-sex couples.
quote:
So now it's you that has the fear?
Huh? How on earth did you get anything like that from my words?
[i]There is no difference in gay marriage and hetro marriage, except for how people have sex and the fact that gays might have an easier time of it.
I'm delighted that anyone might have an easier time in their marriages, for any reason.
We don't need to give it away if we just use less of it in the first place.
quote:
Other than oil, that is bullshit.
That statement makes no sense.
It makes perfect sense, rat.
Many of the worlds resources are non-renewable, or are being depleted at a rate far faster than they can be replenished.
Americans consume natural resources at a rate far greater than much of the rest of the world. That means we use more than our fair share, simply because we are rich and strong.
More Americans = less for everyone eventually.
When was the last time you bought a pair of sneakers that were made in the US of materials produced entirely in the US?
quote:
I call that feeding the world. Thanks to US people around the globe have lobs and can feed their families.
In sweatshops. With no benefits. No unions. No democracy. No worker safety laws. No power to make anything better for themselves. For pennies a day in many cases. All so Nike can make incredible profits on a pair of Air Jordans.
What, do you think the workers in China have rights like workers here in the US?
No, not really. I am saying that it sounds selfish to have kids because of your own needs and wants.
quote:
I say it sounds even more selfish to not wants kids, and have everything for yourself. Do you think before you talk?
If I had a kid, it wouldn't be becasue I like to have a kid around. I would have a kid in order to produce a thinking, sensitive, caring, educated, intelligent, productive, joyful member of the human race. Frankly, my desire to have a kid around would be a much less important factor in my decision to have one. You see, the kid doesn't exist for my benefit. It is the other way around.
My overpopulation "worries" are backed up by copious amounts of evidence. You have offered no evidence in support of your reassurances that "everything is fine".
quote:
I've indicated that everything is fine here, in the US.
It doesn't matter about the US unless you only care about right here and right now. That is, as I've said, a self-centered and short-sighted view to take.
I thought that you Christians were supposed to care about what happens to everybody, and give people your coat if they are cold and don't have a coat, and all that.
Your attitude seems to be "Hey, I got mine, everything's hunky-dory here, right now, with my immediate family, and I don't really care what happens a couple hundred years down the road."
Plus if you have the resources to provide for your children, what is the problem with having them?
It contributes to the more rapid depletion of non-renewable resources.
This will affect your decendents.
quote:
If I did not have those resources, then I would not have had them.
Let me ask you this. If all of them got accepted into Harvard, would you be able to send them?
You have already said that you never even thought about overpopulation,
quote:
Of course I did, that is why I had a vasectomy after I had a few.
That's not "overpopulation", rat, in the global sense. That was your own bank account.
Opinions based upon data always supercede those that are pulled out of backsides.
quote:
pfffft, maybe you should really start living that way, if thats what you are going to preach.
One of the reasons we have chosen to not have any natural children is because of the overpopulation problem. I also do not shop in WAL-MART, which gets the majority of it's products from companies that use questionable overseas labor practices and is a predatory business anyway.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by riVeRraT, posted 06-18-2007 11:37 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by riVeRraT, posted 06-18-2007 8:09 PM nator has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 190 of 240 (406323)
06-19-2007 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by riVeRraT
06-18-2007 8:01 PM


Re: The mysteries of life
Do you have any daughters, rat?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by riVeRraT, posted 06-18-2007 8:01 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by riVeRraT, posted 06-19-2007 4:48 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 202 of 240 (406427)
06-19-2007 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by riVeRraT
06-19-2007 4:48 PM


Re: The mysteries of life
The reason I asked about the existence of any daughters is that every time you talk about gay marriage or gay sex or anything having to do with homosexuality, you only talk about males.
In this thread, you have mentioned how you would talk to your son about being gay if he told you he was, and you talk about not understanding how men could be attracted to each other, etc.
I even mocked you upthread about not mentioning lesbians, yet you are seemingly concerned exclusively (obsessed, really) with male homosexual relationships and how bad they are in the eyes of God, how you will never understand it, etc.
That's why I wondered if you had any daughters, because you were speaking as though you only had sons.
Maybe you don't think that God thinks that lesbians are as bad as gay men.
Maybe you just don't care all that much about females or don't think they are as important, so being a lesbian isn't as big a deal to you.
Or maybe you don't get the "ick factor" about gay women like you do about gay men because you are sexually aroused by the straight male fantasy version of lesbians.
Whatever the reason, it sure seems like you only care about what gay men are doing. Lesbians don't even seem to show up on your radar, but they are just as gay as the men.
Why do you think that is?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by riVeRraT, posted 06-19-2007 4:48 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by riVeRraT, posted 06-20-2007 8:23 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 205 of 240 (406502)
06-20-2007 5:54 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by riVeRraT
06-20-2007 8:23 AM


Re: The mysteries of life
quote:
I have a daughter, and when I use the word gay, or homosexual, I am referring to both sex's.
I don't think so.
I think you pretty much only think of males when the word "gay" is used.
That's why you only ever talked about gay male sex, and only mentioned talking to your son if he was gay, not your son and daughter.
If you were referring to both, you wouldn't have done those things.
You would have, you know, actually referred to both.
quote:
At one point in time, I could look at lesbian's and be turned on (if they were good looking) but now the reality of it is that those women,(true lesbians) usually hate men,
Lesbians don't hate men, despite the popular myth that they do. All of the lesbians I have ever known have had male friends, and some of them have lots of male friends, both gay and straight, and some also have lots of female friends, both gay and straight.
I have friends of both genders, and some of them are straight and some of them are gay.
Seriously, rat, where do you get this shit? Wherever you got it from is full of crap.
quote:
and have no interest in me, or any other guy, which is a turn-off to me.
They don't have a sexual interest in you, or any man, no.
Unless they are bisexual, of course.
quote:
Sex is great, but true love is better.
Yeah. True love between two men, or two women, or a woman and a man, is way better than just sex.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by riVeRraT, posted 06-20-2007 8:23 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by riVeRraT, posted 06-20-2007 10:26 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 212 of 240 (406558)
06-21-2007 9:02 AM
Reply to: Message 207 by riVeRraT
06-20-2007 10:26 PM


Re: The mysteries of life
quote:
I don't care what you think, I've already explained where I am coming from. Accept it, or live in a lie.
Methinks the rat protests too much.
Your actual behavior gave you away, rat. I can't really know, of course, but based upon your comments here on this board, for years, it is pretty clear that it's gay males that you are concerned about, and you don't really even think about your daughter being gay, or about lesbians at all. Looking at the male fantasy porn version of lesbians is actually pleasurable to you, in fact. So it makes perfect sense that you would be kind of obsessed with gay male sexuality as a negative, and not really get completely upset and icked out at the idea of two women having sex. The ick factor you feel about gay males just overrides everything, it seems.
Lesbians don't hate men,
quote:
Sexually they do, and that is what I was talking about. Stop confusing love with sex.
Lesbians don't "sexually hate men" either. I don't "sexually hate women", and gay men don't "sexually hate women" either. It is simply a non-issue.
OTOH, it seems as though you are projecting your "sexual hate of men" on to everytbody else. As in, you have such an irrational overreaction to gay male sexuality that you hate gay males, and you think everybody else feels like that about the group they don't want to have sex with, too.
Other people aren't like that.
quote:
You have set a record for contradicting yourself this thread, and setting double standards.
Show me where or retract.
What I've noticed that you often do in debate is that when I point out that you are repeatedly using a specific fallacy or are making a specific error in your argument, you then start to accuse me of doing the same thing, except that you never point out the specific fallacy or error. You just sort of tack it on to an argument as a sort of "I know you are but what am I" kind of response. Of course, without the explanation of the problem, it is just an empty, meaningless accusation. Everybody else sees this, though.
Edited by nator, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by riVeRraT, posted 06-20-2007 10:26 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 234 by riVeRraT, posted 06-22-2007 8:34 AM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 213 of 240 (406559)
06-21-2007 9:05 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Taz
06-20-2007 11:32 PM


Re: The mysteries of life
quote:
Hell, I even cram my sexuality down other people's throats
Aren't there laws against doing that in public?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Taz, posted 06-20-2007 11:32 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Taz, posted 06-21-2007 2:02 PM nator has replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 227 of 240 (406693)
06-21-2007 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Hyroglyphx
06-21-2007 12:24 PM


Re: The mysteries of life
quote:
Sen. John Kerry says that he is personally against abortion, but believes that the choice should remain personal to the woman.
Does that mean that Kerry is against abortion?
Yes, it most certainly does mean that John Kerry is against abortion.
He doesn't approve.
quote:
If we are going by your rationale, then Kerry is no different from Rat here.
Right, except that Rat refuses to admit that he is against homosexuality, while John Kerry is up front about his disapproval of abortion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-21-2007 12:24 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 228 of 240 (406694)
06-21-2007 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Taz
06-21-2007 2:02 PM


Re: The mysteries of life
quote:
There are 2 ways I interpreted this message. (1) You have a sick mind or (2) you quote-mined me.
hee hee hee hee...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Taz, posted 06-21-2007 2:02 PM Taz has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 229 of 240 (406696)
06-21-2007 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Hyroglyphx
06-21-2007 4:54 PM


partly OT, but had to comment (because I'm me)
quote:
For instance, I think everyone should come to God. Does that mean that I want theocracy that forces people to worship in vain, much like a Taliban regime? Absolutely not.
Why not, if it works?
I mean, who are you that you think you know exactly what defines "coming to god", anyway?
quote:
I happen to feel the unproductive and unhealthy stance would be allowing impressionable youth to engage in destructive behavior simply because it might hurt their feelings.
Yeah, becasue blacks and whites just shouldn't marry. God separated the races for a reason, and it's just unnatural to mix them up. Think of the social stigma and outright hatred and intolerance they and their mulatto children would have to endure.
No, youth should learn that marrying a person of another race is not only against society but it is against nature and God's plan for them. It is destructive, like you said.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-21-2007 4:54 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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