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Author Topic:   Please - Some Impartial Advice Needed
Taz
Member (Idle past 1551 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 226 of 240 (406664)
06-21-2007 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Hyroglyphx
06-21-2007 4:54 PM


Re: The mysteries of life
Going backwards.

nemjug writes:

I think you're overly sensitive. If you want to survive in this world I think you are going to have to develop some thicker skin. There are all sorts of things that people don't like about me, and I about them. Does that mean my parents hate my everlovin' guts because I broke something of theirs when I was a child? Becasue breaking that object was wrong, and I broke it, must it mean that they hate.


Are you reading my words seriously or not? Breaking something does not define who you are. There's no such thing as a thing-breaker.

This has nothing to do with thicker skin or not. Read my previous post again. I said that I wouldn't have bothered responding to rat if he would just come out and say it outright that he hates homosexuals. Everyone has the right to hate, and I actually respect that. What bothers me is that he's practically implying he hates the person while saying he does not.

Consider the following statement. Christians are cannibals and evil doers. But I encourage you to hate christianity, but love the christians.

Does that make any sense to you? It doesn't to me.

That said, there is certainly productive ways of handling it. Thus far, has anyone that disagrees with homosexuality bashed Taylor over the head and called him all sorts of derogatory names? Certainly not.

There are other ways to harm him beside calling him names.

You know, my son sometimes tries to touch the stove. I impress upon him the notion that it is dangerous because I care for his well being. Its the same with anything else, including this topic. I would be an enemy of that person if I didn't tell them my honset opinion on the matter.

See, this is what I don't get about you. You tend to compare homosexuals to dogs, children, murderers and rapists. Just remember that I was once like you, if not worse.

I happen to feel the unproductive and unhealthy stance would be allowing impressionable youth to engage in destructive behavior simply because it might hurt their feelings.

See, there are two types of opinions: (1) Opinions that matter and (2) opinions that don't matter. I realized a long time ago that I could do more harm than not if I share my opinions that matter, because while it's my opinion the matter is still up for debate and I could be wrong. On the other hand, there are opinions that don't matter, like my often shared opinion against democracy... people are more likely to pass it off as a rant of a lunatic than take it seriously.

Homosexuality being harmful to a person is only YOUR OPINION. It's up for debate. If you want to share it, share it with people like me or Berberry who can defend ourselves. What you and rat are doing is you guys are sharing YOUR OPINIONS (opinions that are up for debate) to kids (who are vulnerable to suggestion and could be affected for life). That's not the end of it. You are sharing YOUR OPINIONS as authoritative figures (parent, elder, religious leader, etc.), making it easier for YOUR OPINIONS to sink in deeper than usual.

Look, I think christianity is an unhealthy lifestyle. I really do. Having grown up being fed all the bullshit, I finally broke free from it. I honestly think the world would be a much better place without christianity or any other religion. But I also realize that it is only an opinion that is up for debate. I share it with people that are mature. But be assured, when I have children, they will be offered the options to explore christianity, buddhism, whatever they want to explore.

Your opposition to homosexuality is still ONLY AN OPINION.

Then why not keep your mouth shut when Rat expresses his opinion?

You missed the part where I said I keep my mouth shut until I hear someone says something mean, hateful, or impractical.

If you viewed it in the same terms as you see any other behavior of ill repute, you might better understand why he sees it as he does.

But I do know how he sees it. I've been there. You're talking to a guy that went through all the stages from hating homosexuals outright to opposing them to disagreeing with them to feeling remorse to seeing their rights to exist to where I am now. Trust me, what he is feeling and what you are feeling are remnants of hate and bigotry that have persisted in the human race for millenia.

Taz, you seem to think that opposing something somehow equal hatred... I'm not a pagan, friend. I can oppose something and not hate a thing.

Yeah... and the KKK people only oppose to mixing the races. You expect me to buy this crap?

Isn't he entitled to his opinion just like you reserve the right for that to piss you off? Afterall, isn't that what right and wrong boils down to in a relativistic outlook?

And as I've repeated many times, perhaps he should pick on more mature people rather than targetting very young and immature kids with HIS OPINION. Again, let me repeat myself. Kids naturally hate things that are different. I was one of them not too long ago, I know. They put kids that are different through hell in school. At the high school I went through, there was actually one gay kid I know that was beaten up and for days afterward everyone (including myself) was saying how much he deserved it. There just isn't any way around the fact that kids do mean things to each other.

But that's only on the weekdays. On Sunday, they go to church and again they hear preachers and people like rat go on and on how sinful homosexuality is. You honestly think the bullshit message that "hate the sin, not the sinner" will get through? If anything, it will reinforce all the cruel intentions they already have.

By "not getting involved," you are basically condoning the action you claim to be against.

For once, I agree with something you have to say. The fact that fundamentalists like you are somehow taking over this country even though there are still people claiming that the tolerant christians are still a majority tells me that they either don't exist or that deep inside they actually agree with all the bigotted legislations that are coming out.

So I'm asking if that same rationale applies to Sen. Kerry when it comes to abortion.

I don't know and I don't care. To be honest, I voted for Kerry. But after I walked out of the voting place, I had a deep sense of regret for having voted at all. It was really a race between George Bush and George Bush wannabe/lookalike.


Disclaimer:

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes![/size]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-21-2007 4:54 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 238 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-22-2007 5:22 PM Taz has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 429 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 227 of 240 (406693)
06-21-2007 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Hyroglyphx
06-21-2007 12:24 PM


Re: The mysteries of life
quote:
Sen. John Kerry says that he is personally against abortion, but believes that the choice should remain personal to the woman.

Does that mean that Kerry is against abortion?


Yes, it most certainly does mean that John Kerry is against abortion.

He doesn't approve.

quote:
If we are going by your rationale, then Kerry is no different from Rat here.

Right, except that Rat refuses to admit that he is against homosexuality, while John Kerry is up front about his disapproval of abortion.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-21-2007 12:24 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 429 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 228 of 240 (406694)
06-21-2007 9:12 PM
Reply to: Message 216 by Taz
06-21-2007 2:02 PM


Re: The mysteries of life
quote:
There are 2 ways I interpreted this message. (1) You have a sick mind or (2) you quote-mined me.

hee hee hee hee...


This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Taz, posted 06-21-2007 2:02 PM Taz has not yet responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 429 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 229 of 240 (406696)
06-21-2007 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Hyroglyphx
06-21-2007 4:54 PM


partly OT, but had to comment (because I'm me)
quote:
For instance, I think everyone should come to God. Does that mean that I want theocracy that forces people to worship in vain, much like a Taliban regime? Absolutely not.

Why not, if it works?

I mean, who are you that you think you know exactly what defines "coming to god", anyway?

quote:
I happen to feel the unproductive and unhealthy stance would be allowing impressionable youth to engage in destructive behavior simply because it might hurt their feelings.

Yeah, becasue blacks and whites just shouldn't marry. God separated the races for a reason, and it's just unnatural to mix them up. Think of the social stigma and outright hatred and intolerance they and their mulatto children would have to endure.

No, youth should learn that marrying a person of another race is not only against society but it is against nature and God's plan for them. It is destructive, like you said.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-21-2007 4:54 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
nator
Member (Idle past 429 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 230 of 240 (406697)
06-21-2007 9:26 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Hyroglyphx
06-21-2007 5:03 PM


Re: The mysteries of life
quote:
I wonder, though, if you'd have the same outlook when it comes to murder.

"I'm personaly against murder, but damn it, we shouldn't stop people from doing it if they want to!"


Perhaps you would like to explain (in another thread) how you justify forcing women to maintain pregnancies and give birth to the infants?

quote:
But people do choose whom they sleep with.

Ah, but who you choose to sleep with is different from who you are sexually attracted to.

I mean, there are celibate people who have never slept with anybody, but they are still sexually attracted to people, and probably one gender.

I don't ever remember actually choosing my sexual orientation. I've just always been attracted to boys. That is also the case with everybody else I've ever met and discussed this with, gay and straight alike.

When did you choose to be attracted to women, juggs? Did you flip a coin when you were 10 and it came up "girls", so you decided at that moment to be straight, but you could have just as easily chosen to be gay?

Edited by nator, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-21-2007 5:03 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 231 of 240 (406704)
06-21-2007 10:29 PM


Perhaps you would like to explain (in another thread) how you justify forcing women to maintain pregnancies and give birth to the infants?

{abe.....and in the same thread how the MD's are justified in killing the children whom those women procreated and brought to be.

Edited by Buzsaw, : No reason given.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by crashfrog, posted 06-21-2007 10:40 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded
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crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 232 of 240 (406707)
06-21-2007 10:40 PM
Reply to: Message 231 by Buzsaw
06-21-2007 10:29 PM


Doctors don't kill children.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Buzsaw, posted 06-21-2007 10:29 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 179 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 233 of 240 (406758)
06-22-2007 8:16 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by Rahvin
06-21-2007 12:47 AM


Re: The mysteries of life
It's cool rahvin, thanks for the reply.

And you've said many times that you believe homosexuality to be a sin. Sin, by definition, sends one to Hell without belief and absolution in Christ, according to Christian dogma.

I am not down with the Christian dogma, I believe we just don't know who is, and who ain't going to hell. We are all sinners, and we can never really know what is on one's heart, so it is not up to us, and we shouldn't be living life worrying about it. For many years I was agnostic, and at no point then, or now did I ever really feel like I was going to hell, why should I condemn anyone else then?

The bible is clear, we are to be Jesus like, and Jesus came to save, not to judge the world.

You can't save anyone, by condemning them.

Christians only job should be, to love.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Rahvin, posted 06-21-2007 12:47 AM Rahvin has not yet responded

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 179 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 234 of 240 (406760)
06-22-2007 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by nator
06-21-2007 9:02 AM


Re: The mysteries of life
The ick factor you feel about gay males just overrides everything, it seems.

Yes, to men together, in appearance to me, is more gross than two women.
But you are blending issues once again.

How I feel about the appearance of either, has nothing to do with homosexual marriage in the state.

As in, you have such an irrational overreaction to gay male sexuality that you hate gay males, and you think everybody else feels like that about the group they don't want to have sex with, too.

I don't hate anyone, as I have stated several times, I will never understand the attraction between two members of the same sex, male or female.

Show me where or retract.

Really really, I am tired of responding to you on this subject. I do have a life, and it does not include taking an hour or so to go back over this entire thread. It's all there in black and white, so if you need proof, just read the thread.

It all goes back to this comment:

quote:

You said, "I also don't agree with it, based on that it is not the same thing. Man and woman becomes one, seems to be more difficult than man, and man."

First off, did you mean to say that "man and man" is more difficult, or that "man and woman" is more difficult, because currently your sentence says the latter.


Even though it was there is black and white, you still were more interested in trying to find out what I meant, instead of what I actually said.

Then you proceeded to say the same thing, but it was ok for you to say it, as you did not "mean" anything else by it, only I did. There's your contradiction, and double standard.

If we are going to debate any further in the future, you are going to have to take my words at face value, and stop this BS of trying to find out what was meant. women seem to do that a bit too much.

You know the difference between men and women?
When you ask a man what he is thinking, and he says, "nothing" He means it.

Everybody else sees this, though.

You need to mind your own business, and speak for yourself. There are several people here, and in the world who agree with what I am saying.
Doesn't make it right or wrong, who thinks what, what matters is the truth, and only what you think.

If you are going to start speaking for everyone else, and how they feel about me, then there is a whole bunch of other stuff that goes along with it, and unless you really want to be representing these people, on everything they say, then you need to can that statement, once and for all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by nator, posted 06-21-2007 9:02 AM nator has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by nator, posted 06-22-2007 8:51 AM riVeRraT has responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 429 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 235 of 240 (406762)
06-22-2007 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by Buzsaw
06-21-2007 10:29 PM


Perhaps you would like to explain (in another thread) how you justify forcing women to maintain pregnancies and give birth to the infants?

quote:
{abe.....and in the same thread how the MD's are justified in killing the children whom those women procreated and brought to be.

Start the thread, Buz, and I'll be there to explain it to you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by Buzsaw, posted 06-21-2007 10:29 PM Buzsaw has not yet responded

    
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 179 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 236 of 240 (406763)
06-22-2007 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by AdminNem
06-21-2007 11:56 AM


Re: Warning
I apologize to you, and to rahvin.

I've had a ruff week, many people I know sick, and dying, and it is getting to me. Bad timing, I should know better than to come here when I am upset. I am usually not the kind of person to take out my feelings on others.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by AdminNem, posted 06-21-2007 11:56 AM AdminNem has not yet responded

  
nator
Member (Idle past 429 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 237 of 240 (406765)
06-22-2007 8:51 AM
Reply to: Message 234 by riVeRraT
06-22-2007 8:34 AM


Re: The mysteries of life
quote:
Yes, to men together, in appearance to me, is more gross than two women.

Right, and that should maybe help you realize that your reaction is irrational and partly culturally (which includes religion) based.

quote:
But you are blending issues once again.

How I feel about the appearance of either, has nothing to do with homosexual marriage in the state.


Really, I'm not, becasue we have most recently been talking about you telling your kids that homosexuality is wrong and sinful.

quote:
I don't hate anyone, as I have stated several times, I will never understand the attraction between two members of the same sex, male or female.

I don't hate anyone, as I have stated several times, I will never understand the attraction between two members of different races.

If we are going to debate any further in the future, you are going to have to take my words at face value, and stop this BS of trying to find out what was meant. women seem to do that a bit too much.

Too funny, rat, just too funny.

I nearly always take your words at face falue. Then, when I respond to what you say and only what you say, you complain that I don't "get it" and that what you "really" meant to say was something else. That "something else" sometimes makes no sense when compared to what you originally said, or blatantly contradicts it, or similar.

I'm not the only one who has this experience with you. Remember Rhavin telling you that what you very much appeared to be saying was one thing, and that was why several people responded to you as though you were saying that thing, but then you came back and said "that's not what I meant"?

If everybody else on a thread all "hear" the same thing from you, and it is not your true position, then one or both of the following is happening:

1) You are not communicating your ideas well at all, which is not our fault, and it is up to you to be clearer.

2) You are, in fact, communicating very clearly, but when your argument is shredded or criticised or reflects poorly on you, you try to spin it or amend it after the fact instead of defending it. That is disingenuous.

In your case, it appears to be a combination of each.

Edited by nator, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by riVeRraT, posted 06-22-2007 8:34 AM riVeRraT has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 239 by riVeRraT, posted 06-23-2007 8:36 AM nator has not yet responded

    
Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5805
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 238 of 240 (406844)
06-22-2007 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 226 by Taz
06-21-2007 6:11 PM


Re: The mysteries of life
Breaking something does not define who you are.

Neither does sexuality. My sexuality does not encapsulate who I am as a person.

I said that I wouldn't have bothered responding to rat if he would just come out and say it outright that he hates homosexuals. Everyone has the right to hate, and I actually respect that. What bothers me is that he's practically implying he hates the person while saying he does not.

Maybe he is being genuine. He told you flat out that he disagrees with homosexuality, but feels that by trying to push legislation against homosexual marriage is counterproductive. How on earth does that somehow mean that he hates homosexuals?

Consider the following statement. Christians are cannibals and evil doers. But I encourage you to hate christianity, but love the christians.

Does that make any sense to you? It doesn't to me.

Yes, it does. Let me give you an example. The OKC bombing was a horrible thing, yet, I don't hate Timothy McVeigh, or bin Laden, or Hussein.

Jesus instructed me to love even my enemies, and that's what I intend to do.

You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. -Matthew 5:43-48

See, this is what I don't get about you. You tend to compare homosexuals to dogs, children, murderers and rapists.

Taz, I'm not comparing homosexuals to anything else. I'm using analogies to help you understand where I'm coming from.

(1) Opinions that matter and (2) opinions that don't matter. I realized a long time ago that I could do more harm than not if I share my opinions that matter, because while it's my opinion the matter is still up for debate and I could be wrong. On the other hand, there are opinions that don't matter, like my often shared opinion against democracy... people are more likely to pass it off as a rant of a lunatic than take it seriously.[/qs]

This is a webforum where the whole idea is spitballing ideas. But if you really want to go by your own advice, then what makes this topic important enough to discuss?

Homosexuality being harmful to a person is only YOUR OPINION. It's up for debate. If you want to share it, share it with people like me or Berberry who can defend ourselves.

Isn't that what we're doing? Look, Taylor asked for advice. He has gotten plenty of it. He has both sides of the story.

What you and rat are doing is you guys are sharing YOUR OPINIONS (opinions that are up for debate) to kids (who are vulnerable to suggestion and could be affected for life).

Yeah, exactly, so I don't want him getting a lopsided view.

That's not the end of it. You are sharing YOUR OPINIONS as authoritative figures (parent, elder, religious leader, etc.), making it easier for YOUR OPINIONS to sink in deeper than usual.

Explain to me why my opinion is different from yours?

Look, I think christianity is an unhealthy lifestyle. I really do.

That's fine. You won't see me crying foul ball when somebody asks for an objective opinion on the matter and you chime in. You are trying to silence me, while telling your version of events to Taylor with a megaphone.

You're talking to a guy that went through all the stages from hating homosexuals outright to opposing them to disagreeing with them to feeling remorse to seeing their rights to exist to where I am now. Trust me, what he is feeling and what you are feeling are remnants of hate and bigotry that have persisted in the human race for millenia.

Taz, nobody hates Taylor, m'kay. You've imagined this all in your mind to justify yourself. We all see that he is a confused boy who has asked for some guidance. We all are trying to help him forge his path by giving him the advice that he requested. I'm not here to make Taylor feel all warm and squishy inside, or tell him exactly what he wants to hear. I'm here to offer an answer to his questions.

perhaps he should pick on more mature people rather than targetting very young and immature kids with HIS OPINION.

He's not picking on anyone! He's giving the advice that Taylor requested. And he is giving his opinion, just as you are giving YOUR OPINION! Just in case you were wondering, you don't own the title to opinions. Thanks.

Kids naturally hate things that are different.

Is that why you hate me?

Anyway, the rest of your post was inane, so I don't feel it warrants a response.

Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : typo


"The problem of Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it is difficult and left untried" -G.K. Chesterton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by Taz, posted 06-21-2007 6:11 PM Taz has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Taz, posted 06-23-2007 1:13 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 179 days)
Posts: 5746
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 239 of 240 (406985)
06-23-2007 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 237 by nator
06-22-2007 8:51 AM


Re: The mysteries of life
Right, and that should maybe help you realize that your reaction is irrational and partly culturally (which includes religion) based.

It's not because the sexual act appeals to me, its because I am attracted to women, not men.

Once again you are blending issues to try and figure out "what I really mean".

Maybe you should have been a tarot card reader or something.

Really, I'm not, becasue we have most recently been talking about you telling your kids that homosexuality is wrong and sinful.

I haven't told them it is wrong or right. I am waiting to see if one of them is homosexual or not, then I will deal with it.
I have told them that I consider it a sin for myself, and that the bible considers it a sin.

I am more liberal about raising my kids. They will have the opportunity to be who ever they want to be.

I don't hate anyone, as I have stated several times, I will never understand the attraction between two members of different races.

That is a totally different subject, why bring it up, and misrepresent?

I nearly always take your words at face falue. Then, when I respond to what you say and only what you say, you complain that I don't "get it" and that what you "really" meant to say was something else.

Sometimes that happens, but most of the time It is others who are including their own prejudices about Christians, or there own misconceptions about things, and blending it with what I say.

Or in your case, what you think I really meant.

My last post to you, clearly indicates that you take what I say, turn it around, and then start debating me on it.

Not only that, in other words, you actually agreed with me.
But when you said it, it was what you meant, when I said it, I really meant something else.

So you set a double standard.

Remember Rhavin telling you that what you very much appeared to be saying was one thing,

rhavin has no excuse to accuse me of what he accused me of. He even corrected himself, and could not go back in the thread and find where I even indicated that I think homosexuality is a sin, and all sinners are going to hell. As a matter of fact, I have never said or indicated that in my entire 4500+ posts here.

Maybe rhavin went back and read, and found out that he was wrong. In doing that, I find rhavin to be a logical, and rational person.

1) You are not communicating your ideas well at all, which is not our fault, and it is up to you to be clearer.

2) You are, in fact, communicating very clearly, but when your argument is shredded or criticised or reflects poorly on you, you try to spin it or amend it after the fact instead of defending it. That is disingenuous.

In your case, it appears to be a combination of each.

You've left out some combinations, have not addressed the issue (AGAIN!) and just showed us poor logic.

I would like you to stop and think before you reply to this, but nator, it is very clear to me, that you have me in a category, and I find many of your responses prejudice/bias based. You seem to knee jerk react too much, and always, always drag a topic off from it's original theme, just to try and make a person look bad. I guess you figure, if you talk enough, and make someone look bad, then no one will see what that person is saying, is actually true.

You have extended that, to include everyone, and try to pit everyone against me. Let me just say, that when I had my email visible here, I used to get emails from anonymous people, thanking me for my faith. It has even been said to me, here in the forums. So it is plainly obvious to me, that not everyone is against me, you can drop that prejudice thought now.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by nator, posted 06-22-2007 8:51 AM nator has not yet responded

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 1551 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 240 of 240 (407019)
06-23-2007 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 238 by Hyroglyphx
06-22-2007 5:22 PM


Re: The mysteries of life
nj writes:

Neither does sexuality. My sexuality does not encapsulate who I am as a person.


Actually, it does. For the rest of your life, you're going to go around introducing your wife to people. Looks like it's a very important part of your life.

Jesus instructed me to love even my enemies, and that's what I intend to do.

NJ, in my eyes you don't actually love gay people. In my eyes, you don't try to curb their rights every chance you get when you love them. That's not love. That's called shoving YOUR OPINION down their throats.

Taz, I'm not comparing homosexuals to anything else. I'm using analogies to help you understand where I'm coming from.

But your analogies stink. Everytime we talk about homosexuals having the right to consent, you always bring in dogs, children, murderers, and rapists as your analogies. Dogs and children can't give consent, so you're practically implying that homosexuals can't give consent. Murderers and rapists are criminals, so you're practically implying that homosexuals are criminals.

Someone pointed this out before, and I'm going to point it out again.

During the civil rights movement, the racists were asking people "would you let a monkey vote?" Of course they were not talking about "them negroes", but would you think we are naive enough to believe that they were not comparing black people to monkeys?

You said that you would stop your little toddlers if he tries to touch a stove. Gay people are not toddlers. They're grown men and women who can make informed decisions by themselves.

Isn't that what we're doing? Look, Taylor asked for advice. He has gotten plenty of it. He has both sides of the story.

Well, I haven't been talking just about Talor for a long time. I've been talking about your decision to want to make it illegal for gay people to be happy and riverrat's decision to reinforce young people's immature hate of those who are different. But you're right, I've been off topic.

Explain to me why my opinion is different from yours?

I can think of a very important difference. It's a lot easier to teach young people intolerance than it is tolerance. You take any teenager and tell him that homosexuals are sinners and evil doers and he'll agree with you on the spot. It actually takes time and effort, and probably you have to put in a human face, to make him accept that gay people are people just like him, you, and me. Why do you think it's so hard for racism to die off? Why do you think sexism is so hard to die off? Not too long ago, the term "broad" was still widely used by young people when they talked about girls. Go into any middle school or high school and you still hear the word "chick" used all the time. In some regions of the south, interracial couples are still stigmatized by their neighbors.

That's fine. You won't see me crying foul ball when somebody asks for an objective opinion on the matter and you chime in. You are trying to silence me, while telling your version of events to Taylor with a megaphone.

Well, not really. Go back and read my advice to Talor. Actually, here is what I said.

quote:
My advice is this. Whether it's moral or immoral depends on who's doing the talking. One thing is certain is that one's sexuality cannot be changed. I tried for a long time to become a homosexual. It never worked. If a straight guy like me who was more than willing to sleep with other guys and change my sexuality without any success, why should I expect a gay guy to be able to change his sexuality?

Just remember that it's harder being gay in this society because of people like riverrat, buzsaw, NJ, and perhaps Phat who are willing to do anything to make sure that gay people will find it hard to be themselves. It's been a tough road for many Americans to try to find acceptance in a society that is suppose to be the role model for human freedom for the pursuit of happiness, and as far as I can see it will be a tough long road ahead.

If you are willing to hang in there, you will one day find happiness in life. Don't give up! Just remember that if god is willing to throw you in hell for being who you are, then he is not the god you or I would want to worship.



Not once did I tell him to be gay and stay gay. First, I told him about my own experience of trying to change my sexuality. Then I pointed out that if he wants to continue pursuing happiness in his own way, he's going to be on a tough road with people like you around trying to pass one legislation after another to take away his rights.

In my second reply, I even said this:

quote:
But I think the main reason why I wanted to be gay was because I still saw how many people hated gay people, and I contributed to that hate. So, I had this (apparently crazy) idea that I might as well stand by gay people and become a victim of my former self. As you know, it never worked. It may be possible for some people to change their sexuality, I don't know. What I do know is that it never worked in my case.

See? I even left room in my advice for yours because as far as changing one's sexuality I could only talk about my experience.

Now, read the following, and probably last advices I gave to him.

quote:
I recognize that I am only one man so I can't really do much to drastically change the situation. What I have to offer is this. If you want to make your life as enjoyable as possible, lay low for a while. At least lay low until you have a pair of wings and be able to fly on your own. Until then, you are at the mercy of your parents, which are christian bigots.

However, if by a remote chance you want to contribute for the greater good of society, then continue with what you are doing. Sunshine really is the best disinfectant. Your life might become unbearably miserable, but in the long run more and more people will realize that anyone at all can be one of "them fagots".

Whichever path you want to take is entirely up to you.



In other words, I even gave him two choices if he decided to continue with this path to happiness. Either he could wait until he's on his own or he can make a stand now.

But the important thing is notice my choices of words. At no time did I said anything definite about Talor himself. I shared my life experience and I presented him with some choices. What he decides to do next is entirely up to him.

Taz, nobody hates Taylor, m'kay. You've imagined this all in your mind to justify yourself. We all see that he is a confused boy who has asked for some guidance. We all are trying to help him forge his path by giving him the advice that he requested. I'm not here to make Taylor feel all warm and squishy inside, or tell him exactly what he wants to hear. I'm here to offer an answer to his questions.

By telling him he's got a mind of a toddler? Please. You're beyond giving advice. On this front, you're trying to indoctrinate him. On the political front, you're trying to pass one legislation after another to make sure if he decides to pursue happiness in his own way he will never find it.

Is that why you hate me?

Actually, no, that's not why I hate you. And yes, I have the guts to admit that I do feel a little hatred. Why? Because everytime we try to do something to improve human life, especially on human rights issues, you people always use god and the bible to stop the improvement. But the biggest reason is I used to be one of you. My former self wouldn't have hesitated to make this country a christian theocracy, and that is exactly what legislating christian morality does.

Anyway, I've said what I wanted to say... more than what I wanted to say. Unless something new comes up, I'm done with this conversation. You can have the last word if you want.

Edited by Tazmanian Devil, : No reason given.


Disclaimer:

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Hyroglyphx, posted 06-22-2007 5:22 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

  
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