Please - Some Impartial Advice Needed

See, this is why people like me think we have a higher/better sense of morality than religion will ever offer. You don't see it as hate, but we do. I have never heard of a single racist that actually admits his racist views as hate. Why? Because the one doing the hating can't tell that they are hating. It's like having bad breath or body odor. Sometimes you need someone else to remind you that your breath stinks or your body wreaks. Same thing with hate.This reminds me of a program I once saw about the KKK, a well known white supremacy group. There was one particular interview that I remembered. This was a typical white male with a beard. In the interview, he insisted that his organization does not hate anyone. They are only doing god's will by seperating the races.Let me emphasize that I am not comparing you to racists. I am only pointing out that you are in the same line of thought. Your case is certainly not as intense or noticable as an outspoken wizard. But in the end, you both claim to not hate while the rest of us DO see what you are doing as hating. Permit me to reiterrate this. I just never consider two humans of different races able to be married. Even to this day, many interracial couples are stigmatized and harrassed everyday because of this same line of reasoning.Now, don't get me wrong. You are certainly entitled to have your opinion. I am not saying that they ought to get married. What I am saying is that what other people decide to do with their lives have nothing to do with me. In my particular case, I accept. In your particular case, you could just not accept. It's that extra step you take to speak out against people's personal choices that gets me riled up.If you remember, I once briefly shared with you my personal view on drugs and drug users (past and present). It disgusts me that people could bring themselves to do drugs and then later in life make babies. To me, this is the ultimate "do what I say, not as I do" hypocrisy. By all practical purposes, you could certainly label this part of me as hate. Can you recall anytime I have ever spoken out against past drug users, especially the ones that decided to have kids except for the two times I mentioned this as examples of "if you have a personal bias of something, please don't share it with the world"?But if you must know, the main reason why I am picking on you is because it frightens me to know you still hold your view (which I would label as hate) and also be so outspoken about it especially in your church. Young people have a natural tendency to hate those that are different than them. For now, I see you as nothing more than a fuel source for this hate that exists in the next generation.

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Disclaimer:Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes![/size]

See what I mean? Oh wait, you don't see what I mean the same way that you don't know your breath stinks. See, the thing is I don't believe that you are actually defending gay rights. Perhaps you think you do. Perhaps you have good intentions. But someone with a personal bias about something will always find a way to speak against it whether on a conscious or subconscious level. Perhaps you're not even aware of it, but you're going to let a few phrases slip out here and there.Why do I not speak out for or against drugs and drug users at all? When I really need to, I will say that I am for rehabilitation, legalization of certain drugs that don't do harm to the user, etc. But I really don't believe that, so I don't actually open my mouth about it every chance I get. Why? Because anything I say will always have a chance of letting the listener hear my personal bias against it.But then today we live in an age when everyone has an opinion on everything about everything. Can't blame you for having an opinion... Yeah, and forever slavery was legal and encourage. What's your point? Well, again I'm sure you have every good intention and all. You think it's a sin, therefore everytime you speak in your church for gay rights, you're going to occasionally let it slip out that you think god hates it. Like I said before, young people, especially high schoolers, think it's the cool thing to hate people who are different. You're going to reinforce this immature hate with your preaching. Of course I do. What I'm saying is that your not liking the act will definitely leak over the accepting the person side. Perhaps not intentionally.Look, I think it's great that you've decided to follow your intellectual side rather than your instincts. I commend you for it. Not many religious people want to take that extra step. What I'm trying to do, and apparently failing to do, is to get you to take another extra step in seeing your own personal bias.A commedian I once saw said "If you have shit, don't give it to me. Keep your own shit." You can continue to do what you are doing. I just want you to realize what your personal bias is, because up to now you are still seeing your reaction to homosexuality as an ordianry, no-harm's-done, everyday reaction. Have you considered the mental harm you are doing to young people everytime you let it slip that somehow god hates it? So, because you wholeheartedly accept evolution now, you're going to continue the pattern of teaching your kids against something that has nothing to do with you?Anyway, I'm done talking about this. You can continue whatever you are doing. I guess sometimes you just can't convince the person that his breath stinks if he insists that the smell is pleasant.

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Disclaimer:Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes![/size]

Haha, Phat. You have just one problem. I don't tell them anything. I don't pretend to be some wise man chosen by god to deliver them a message. I only talk when I see people share their hate with the world. Other than that, I neither discourage nor encourage anything. I am a charter member of the Keep Your Mouth Shut, Enoch Club. I am not an advocate of anything you are referring to. I am only an advocate of "Don't share your shit with the world. Keep your own shit." Just curious. Are you a proponent of sodomy laws and such? Looks to me like nothing would make you more happy than legislating people's personal lives.By the way, the underlined portion I call bullshit. There are plenty of people in this world that would disagree with this statement. There are also many people that would agree. This is why we can't legislate people's personal lives, Phat.Again, if you have shit, don't give it to me or anyone else. Keep your own shit.

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Disclaimer:Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes![/size]

Let me guess, are you having your manly period?

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Disclaimer:Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes![/size]

Haha.So, I now can safely say that I hate other men... sexually of course.

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Disclaimer:Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes![/size]

That's not what you said. You said lesbians hated men sexually. If you can say that, then I can say that I hate men sexually, too. This makes you and I the masters of the bleeding obvious. Not really. When two guys kiss, I might say to myself that I don't want to kiss them, but I also realize that it's none of my bussiness to whether to like or dislike. After all, I kiss my wife and hold her hands in public all the time. Hell, I even cram my sexuality down other people's throats everytime I introduce her to people.So, the answer is no, I do not hate that. It's called a combination of empathy and the golden rule. I wouldn't want other people to hate it when I hold my wife's hands or kiss her.

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Disclaimer:Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes![/size]

There are 2 ways I interpreted this message. (1) You have a sick mind or (2) you quote-mined me.I said I was shoving it into people's faces everytime I say "this is my wife blah blah blah..."

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Disclaimer:Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes![/size]

NJ, there is a clear difference.I am also personally against abortion. I believe human life begins at the moment when the egg is fertilized. However, I don't go around telling people it's a sin or they're going to hell because it's only MY PERSONAL OPINION.None of us would have a problem with rat if he simply says he's against homosexuality and that's the end of that. He is going beyond it. He's telling people every chance he gets that homosexuality is a sin, comparing it to other sins like stealing and such. For me personally, I fear that his approach is very harmful to young people because (like you) they already have an immatured and uninformed hatred of gay people. I can't tell you the hell we put gay people through in high school everytime we even suspected they were gay. And those same kids who do the hating in school would go to church on sunday and have their hate reinforced with riverrat's very outspoken opinion on how disgusting homosexuality is and how sinful it is.I think abortion is unfair to human life, but I keep my mouth shut. Why? Because I realize it is only an opinion. I think anyone caught doing drugs should be encouraged not to have any kids. Again, I keep my mouth shut on that thing because it's only an opinion. So, you see, many of us have unhealthy and unproductive opinions on other people's business. The difference is we realize how unhealthy and unproductive our opinions are, so we don't corrupt young minds with our opinions.The other thing that bothers us is the "hate the sin, love the sinner" bullshit.Let's look at an example. I've been playing music all my life. I listen to classical music every chance I get. I do performance everytime I have a chance. I even define myself as a musician. So, it's clearly a part of my life and a very significant part of what defines me as me.Now, let's look at it this way. Suppose people start telling me that playing music is a sin and comparing that to stealing. Suppose they repeat night and day to "hate the sin, love the sinner". What kind of bullshit statement is that? They are obviously hating a very big part of my life. They are hating a very significant thing that defines who I am. They might as well say that they hate me.So, none of us would have a problem if riverrat just comes out and says "I hate homosexuals" and we'd leave it at that. What bothers us, or me at least, is he's trying to have both the cake and the pie. In the one hand, he's very obviously implying that he hates homosexuals by saying he pretty much hates a major thing that defines who they are. On the other, he's saying he loves them, I guess to either appear good in public.

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Disclaimer:Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes![/size]

Going backwards. Are you reading my words seriously or not? Breaking something does not define who you are. There's no such thing as a thing-breaker.This has nothing to do with thicker skin or not. Read my previous post again. I said that I wouldn't have bothered responding to rat if he would just come out and say it outright that he hates homosexuals. Everyone has the right to hate, and I actually respect that. What bothers me is that he's practically implying he hates the person while saying he does not.Consider the following statement. Christians are cannibals and evil doers. But I encourage you to hate christianity, but love the christians.Does that make any sense to you? It doesn't to me. There are other ways to harm him beside calling him names. See, this is what I don't get about you. You tend to compare homosexuals to dogs, children, murderers and rapists. Just remember that I was once like you, if not worse. See, there are two types of opinions: (1) Opinions that matter and (2) opinions that don't matter. I realized a long time ago that I could do more harm than not if I share my opinions that matter, because while it's my opinion the matter is still up for debate and I could be wrong. On the other hand, there are opinions that don't matter, like my often shared opinion against democracy... people are more likely to pass it off as a rant of a lunatic than take it seriously.Homosexuality being harmful to a person is only YOUR OPINION. It's up for debate. If you want to share it, share it with people like me or Berberry who can defend ourselves. What you and rat are doing is you guys are sharing YOUR OPINIONS (opinions that are up for debate) to kids (who are vulnerable to suggestion and could be affected for life). That's not the end of it. You are sharing YOUR OPINIONS as authoritative figures (parent, elder, religious leader, etc.), making it easier for YOUR OPINIONS to sink in deeper than usual.Look, I think christianity is an unhealthy lifestyle. I really do. Having grown up being fed all the bullshit, I finally broke free from it. I honestly think the world would be a much better place without christianity or any other religion. But I also realize that it is only an opinion that is up for debate. I share it with people that are mature. But be assured, when I have children, they will be offered the options to explore christianity, buddhism, whatever they want to explore.Your opposition to homosexuality is still ONLY AN OPINION. You missed the part where I said I keep my mouth shut until I hear someone says something mean, hateful, or impractical. But I do know how he sees it. I've been there. You're talking to a guy that went through all the stages from hating homosexuals outright to opposing them to disagreeing with them to feeling remorse to seeing their rights to exist to where I am now. Trust me, what he is feeling and what you are feeling are remnants of hate and bigotry that have persisted in the human race for millenia. Yeah... and the KKK people only oppose to mixing the races. You expect me to buy this crap? And as I've repeated many times, perhaps he should pick on more mature people rather than targetting very young and immature kids with HIS OPINION. Again, let me repeat myself. Kids naturally hate things that are different. I was one of them not too long ago, I know. They put kids that are different through hell in school. At the high school I went through, there was actually one gay kid I know that was beaten up and for days afterward everyone (including myself) was saying how much he deserved it. There just isn't any way around the fact that kids do mean things to each other.But that's only on the weekdays. On Sunday, they go to church and again they hear preachers and people like rat go on and on how sinful homosexuality is. You honestly think the bullshit message that "hate the sin, not the sinner" will get through? If anything, it will reinforce all the cruel intentions they already have. For once, I agree with something you have to say. The fact that fundamentalists like you are somehow taking over this country even though there are still people claiming that the tolerant christians are still a majority tells me that they either don't exist or that deep inside they actually agree with all the bigotted legislations that are coming out. I don't know and I don't care. To be honest, I voted for Kerry. But after I walked out of the voting place, I had a deep sense of regret for having voted at all. It was really a race between George Bush and George Bush wannabe/lookalike.

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Disclaimer:Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes![/size]

Actually, it does. For the rest of your life, you're going to go around introducing your wife to people. Looks like it's a very important part of your life. NJ, in my eyes you don't actually love gay people. In my eyes, you don't try to curb their rights every chance you get when you love them. That's not love. That's called shoving YOUR OPINION down their throats. But your analogies stink. Everytime we talk about homosexuals having the right to consent, you always bring in dogs, children, murderers, and rapists as your analogies. Dogs and children can't give consent, so you're practically implying that homosexuals can't give consent. Murderers and rapists are criminals, so you're practically implying that homosexuals are criminals.Someone pointed this out before, and I'm going to point it out again.During the civil rights movement, the racists were asking people "would you let a monkey vote?" Of course they were not talking about "them negroes", but would you think we are naive enough to believe that they were not comparing black people to monkeys?You said that you would stop your little toddlers if he tries to touch a stove. Gay people are not toddlers. They're grown men and women who can make informed decisions by themselves. Well, I haven't been talking just about Talor for a long time. I've been talking about your decision to want to make it illegal for gay people to be happy and riverrat's decision to reinforce young people's immature hate of those who are different. But you're right, I've been off topic. I can think of a very important difference. It's a lot easier to teach young people intolerance than it is tolerance. You take any teenager and tell him that homosexuals are sinners and evil doers and he'll agree with you on the spot. It actually takes time and effort, and probably you have to put in a human face, to make him accept that gay people are people just like him, you, and me. Why do you think it's so hard for racism to die off? Why do you think sexism is so hard to die off? Not too long ago, the term "broad" was still widely used by young people when they talked about girls. Go into any middle school or high school and you still hear the word "chick" used all the time. In some regions of the south, interracial couples are still stigmatized by their neighbors. Well, not really. Go back and read my advice to Talor. Actually, here is what I said.

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My advice is this. Whether it's moral or immoral depends on who's doing the talking. One thing is certain is that one's sexuality cannot be changed. I tried for a long time to become a homosexual. It never worked. If a straight guy like me who was more than willing to sleep with other guys and change my sexuality without any success, why should I expect a gay guy to be able to change his sexuality?

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Just remember that it's harder being gay in this society because of people like riverrat, buzsaw, NJ, and perhaps Phat who are willing to do anything to make sure that gay people will find it hard to be themselves. It's been a tough road for many Americans to try to find acceptance in a society that is suppose to be the role model for human freedom for the pursuit of happiness, and as far as I can see it will be a tough long road ahead.

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If you are willing to hang in there, you will one day find happiness in life. Don't give up! Just remember that if god is willing to throw you in hell for being who you are, then he is not the god you or I would want to worship.

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Not once did I tell him to be gay and stay gay. First, I told him about my own experience of trying to change my sexuality. Then I pointed out that if he wants to continue pursuing happiness in his own way, he's going to be on a tough road with people like you around trying to pass one legislation after another to take away his rights.In my second reply, I even said this:

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But I think the main reason why I wanted to be gay was because I still saw how many people hated gay people, and I contributed to that hate. So, I had this (apparently crazy) idea that I might as well stand by gay people and become a victim of my former self. As you know, it never worked. It may be possible for some people to change their sexuality, I don't know. What I do know is that it never worked in my case.

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See? I even left room in my advice for yours because as far as changing one's sexuality I could only talk about my experience.Now, read the following, and probably last advices I gave to him.

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I recognize that I am only one man so I can't really do much to drastically change the situation. What I have to offer is this. If you want to make your life as enjoyable as possible, lay low for a while. At least lay low until you have a pair of wings and be able to fly on your own. Until then, you are at the mercy of your parents, which are christian bigots.

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However, if by a remote chance you want to contribute for the greater good of society, then continue with what you are doing. Sunshine really is the best disinfectant. Your life might become unbearably miserable, but in the long run more and more people will realize that anyone at all can be one of "them fagots".

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Whichever path you want to take is entirely up to you.

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In other words, I even gave him two choices if he decided to continue with this path to happiness. Either he could wait until he's on his own or he can make a stand now.But the important thing is notice my choices of words. At no time did I said anything definite about Talor himself. I shared my life experience and I presented him with some choices. What he decides to do next is entirely up to him. By telling him he's got a mind of a toddler? Please. You're beyond giving advice. On this front, you're trying to indoctrinate him. On the political front, you're trying to pass one legislation after another to make sure if he decides to pursue happiness in his own way he will never find it. Actually, no, that's not why I hate you. And yes, I have the guts to admit that I do feel a little hatred. Why? Because everytime we try to do something to improve human life, especially on human rights issues, you people always use god and the bible to stop the improvement. But the biggest reason is I used to be one of you. My former self wouldn't have hesitated to make this country a christian theocracy, and that is exactly what legislating christian morality does.Anyway, I've said what I wanted to say... more than what I wanted to say. Unless something new comes up, I'm done with this conversation. You can have the last word if you want.Edited by Tazmanian Devil, : No reason given.

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Disclaimer:

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Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

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He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!