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EvC Forum ⇒ Social and Religious Issues ⇒ Faith and Belief ⇒

God & the Fairy Tree

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Author Topic:   God & the Fairy Tree
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 4 of 306 (407341)
06-25-2007 7:11 PM 		Reply to: Message 1 by Parasomnium
06-25-2007 5:51 PM

Best answer I can find.
Of course this is just a little joke of the gardeners, and parents will probably enjoy reading it to their small children, and watching their reactions, but it made me wonder how this line of reasoning is any different from the religious variety that goes: if you don't feel the presence of God in your life, then it's probably "because you don't believe hard enough", or "because you lead a sinful life", or whatever ad hoc reason is given.
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Those who provide such an answer never seem to be able to give any reasoning for their position.
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Why should I interpret the fairy tree sign as an obvious joke, and take religious reasoning in the same vein seriously?
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There is absolutely no reason you should do so.
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But, of course, maybe it wasn't just a little joke of the gardeners?
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 5 of 306 (407342)
06-25-2007 7:12 PM 		Reply to: Message 3 by Phat
06-25-2007 6:48 PM

Re: Just Be Cause
God as uncaused first cause makes more sense than 4 to 6 elements from the atomic table.
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Why?
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Phat, posted 06-25-2007 6:48 PM Phat has not replied
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 89 of 306 (407580)
06-26-2007 9:51 PM 		Reply to: Message 88 by Rahvin
06-26-2007 9:30 PM

Important to actually look at your quotes.
You posted
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Let's compare:
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Faith
2. belief that is not based on proof
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Delusion
4. Psychiatry. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact
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But then you made a major jump.
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Faith, being a belief not based on proof, is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact.
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How is that supported based on your supplied definitions?
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 94 of 306 (407590)
06-26-2007 11:17 PM 		Reply to: Message 93 by Rahvin
06-26-2007 10:51 PM

Re: Important to actually look at your quotes.
Not very convincing.
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Let's look at the original statement ...
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You posted
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Let's compare:
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Faith
2. belief that is not based on proof
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Delusion
4. Psychiatry. a fixed false belief that is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact
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But then you made a major jump.
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Faith, being a belief not based on proof, is resistant to reason or confrontation with actual fact.
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How is that supported based on your supplied definitions?
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and then your current assertions.
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Note that actual facts are mentioned in the definition of delusion.
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Confronted with the fact that there is no measurable or reproducible evidence that shows the existence of anything supernatural, the believer simply states that the supernatural works to be undetectable, as that is the point of faith.
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Where are the actual facts in your assertion?
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By definition, the supernatural is NOT subject subject to reproducibility since it is an act of will of something which is not natural.
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Let me try to give some examples.
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There is actual evidence that there has never been a world-wide flood.
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Those who believe in a world-wide flood in spite of the factual evidence, could be defined as delusional.
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There is factual evidence that there was no literal Adam and Eve.
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Those who believe in a literal Adam and Eve in spite of the factual evidence, could be defined as delusional.
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There is factual evidence that the Exodus did not happen as described in the Bible.
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Those who believe in the Biblical Exodus in spite of the factual evidence, could be defined as delusional.
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There is factual evidence that there was never a Conquest of Canaan as described in Joshua.
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Those who believe in the Biblical Conquest of Canaan in spite of the factual evidence, could be defined as delusional.
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But so far no one has presented factual evidence that there is no supernatural or that there is no God.
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Faith that there is a God does not fall under the definition that you presented as "delusion".
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Rahvin, posted 06-26-2007 10:51 PM Rahvin has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Rahvin, posted 06-27-2007 12:19 AM jar has replied
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 105 of 306 (407624)
06-27-2007 10:16 AM 		Reply to: Message 96 by Rahvin
06-27-2007 12:19 AM

Re: Important to actually look at your quotes.
I said:
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jar writes:
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By definition, the supernatural is NOT subject subject to reproducibility since it is an act of will of something which is not natural.
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To which you replied:
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No, the supernatural is that which does not obey natural laws. That doesn't mean it gets a free pass on evidence.
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No one said it gets a free pass on evidence.
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Your statement is identical to saying "By definition, finding fairies is NOT subject to reproducibility since they fly away when you look - an act of will."
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Correct. Now for it to be a delusion, according to the definition you supplied, if I continued to believe that after factual evidence was presented that they did not fly away, I would be delusional.
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Aren't you confusing the presence of evidence with a lack of evidence.
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My entire point in this is that, to the outside observer, to someone who does not already have faith, believing in a god despite a complete and total lack of any solid evidence despite multiple attempts to find some looks exactly the same as the above examples.
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And that is fine, at least from my perspective. I really think it is a reasonable and acceptable position for someone to not believe in God until factual evidence is presented that God exists. But that works both ways. To believe in God until factual evidence is presented that God does not exist is equally valid.
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by Rahvin, posted 06-27-2007 11:57 AM jar has replied
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 111 of 306 (407636)
06-27-2007 12:01 PM 		Reply to: Message 110 by Rahvin
06-27-2007 11:57 AM

Re: Important to actually look at your quotes.
While you and I would both say "anyone who believes in fairies is either a child or delusional," I would apply the same logic to the existence of God and you would not.
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But I would not say that anyone who believes in fairies is either a child or delusional.
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 116 of 306 (407644)
06-27-2007 12:51 PM 		Reply to: Message 113 by pbee
06-27-2007 12:27 PM

looking at comparisons.
Fairies are to God as skateboards are to buses. Can we compare skateboards to buses?
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I'm sorry but just what is the support for that assertion? How is a fairy different from, say, Loki?
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Faith in God rests on numerous measurable accounts and facts.
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Really? What measurable facts are those?
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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 Message 113 by pbee, posted 06-27-2007 12:27 PM pbee has not replied
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 186 of 306 (407753)
06-28-2007 11:03 AM 		Reply to: Message 185 by pbee
06-28-2007 10:58 AM

Re: Consider Columbus
As a Christian, I have to wonder where you think you have pointed to any support for your position.
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You said:
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The evidence, is all around us.
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Where? What?
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We can see things around us, but that tells us nothing about how any of that was created.
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Where is the evidence that GOD created what we see around us?
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by pbee, posted 06-28-2007 10:58 AM pbee has replied
Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 193 of 306 (407762)
06-28-2007 11:30 AM 		Reply to: Message 188 by pbee
06-28-2007 11:14 AM

still looking for evidence
You have still not shown any evidence that GOD created anything we see. I have not asked HOW God did it, only that you show some evidence that God actually created anything.
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So far all we have from you is the unsupported assertion.
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
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 Message 188 by pbee, posted 06-28-2007 11:14 AM pbee has not replied
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 197 of 306 (407768)
06-28-2007 11:43 AM 		Reply to: Message 195 by pbee
06-28-2007 11:37 AM

Looking at the universe
But we are still left with a house and a claimant nonetheless.
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In the case of reality, the universe we live in, we are left with a house and many claimants. There is not one entity claiming the position of builder but rather many. There is also the claim that no one or thing built it, it just is.
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So your claim that God created the universe must be weighed against all the other claimants.
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Can you offer any evidence that supports your claimant?
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by pbee, posted 06-28-2007 11:37 AM pbee has replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 223 of 306 (407804)
06-28-2007 2:51 PM 		Reply to: Message 205 by pbee
06-28-2007 12:22 PM

Not evidence
I don't mean to make people squirm, however the fact that we exist is the evidence(as initially stated). And to this evidence, we have a claim.
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Sorry but that is evidence of nothing except that we exist.
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However, the fact remains that our existence has been claimed by God. Until we can prove otherwise, His claim stands to reason.
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Sorry but that is irrelevant. It carries no more weight than the claim of anyone else. It is simply an unsupported assertion by you so far.
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by pbee, posted 06-28-2007 12:22 PM pbee has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by pbee, posted 06-28-2007 3:05 PM jar has replied
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 226 of 306 (407808)
06-28-2007 3:26 PM 		Reply to: Message 224 by pbee
06-28-2007 3:05 PM

Re: Not evidence
You still have not said anything.
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There are many claims and so far you have offered no support for any of them.
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by pbee, posted 06-28-2007 3:05 PM pbee has not replied
jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 228 of 306 (407821)
06-28-2007 3:51 PM 		Reply to: Message 227 by pbee
06-28-2007 3:36 PM

Re: Not evidence
I can assert my own position to the initial claim that God created all things, but beyond that, the claim was stated and the evidence has been accounted for.
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What evidence? So far you have presented NO evidence for the claim.
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How many times must that be pointed out?
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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