Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 64 (9072 total)
73 online now:
jar, kjsimons, nwr, Tanypteryx (4 members, 69 visitors)
Newest Member: FossilDiscovery
Happy Birthday: Percy
Post Volume: Total: 893,118 Year: 4,230/6,534 Month: 444/900 Week: 150/150 Day: 4/16 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Endtime Prophecy and the European Union
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3159 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 31 of 313 (407191)
06-24-2007 11:18 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
06-24-2007 8:38 PM


Re: Christianity is serious, End Time Prophecy is just nonsense
i don't take anything seriously, much less the poor interpretations of crazy people.

but, yes, if jesus had really intended us to fret about dates and times and places and potential future whackos, the bible would be a big calendar instead of stories about how to or not to treat people.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 06-24-2007 8:38 PM jar has taken no action

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 2829 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 32 of 313 (407221)
06-25-2007 4:50 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
06-24-2007 3:39 PM


Post-Hoc Prophecy
Oh, great. Another prediction-after-the-fact.

People said the Bible predicted World War 2. But for some reason they only saw fit to mention it after the war started.

People said the Bible predicted the rise of the Soviet Union--but only after there was a Soviet Union.

People said the Bible predicted the UN--but only after there was a UN.

People said the Bible predicted the modern state of Israel--but only only after there was a modern state of Israel.

People said the Bible explained plate tectonics--but only after plate tectonic theory gained acceptance.

People said the Bible predicted the fall of the Soviet Empire--but only after the Soviet Empire fell. (Before that they were actually expecting a nuclear conflict.)

Now it is generally accepted that the globe is warming, so they say the Bible predicted global warming.

Now we have a European Union, so they say the Bible predicted the European Union.

Post-hoc 'prophecy' is a silly game. Anyone can play.

Why didn't anyone call any of these events before they happened? Isn't that what real prophecy is supposed to do?

Where are the records of fundies circa 1950, for example, telling us the Bible reveals the continents move on crustal plates? That an EU is on the way? That the planet is getting warmer?

Nowhere. Fundies learned about these things when the rest of us did--or, more often, even later. Bible thumping didn't give them advance notice of anything.

Such 'prophecy' is anything but.

Here it is at last, dear fundies: your chance to demonstrate real foreknowledge.

Don't tell us what has already happened. Pick up your Bibles and tell us, based on that reading, what will happen. Tell us the headlines we'll be seeing 12 months from now. Give us something in advance that we can check against the real thing.

Until you can do that, you haven't predicted anything. You're just playing an easy game.

______

Edited by Archer Opterix, : typo repair.


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 06-24-2007 3:39 PM jar has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Taz, posted 06-25-2007 5:05 PM Archer Opteryx has taken no action

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15931
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 33 of 313 (407223)
06-25-2007 6:17 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by PaulK
06-23-2007 4:58 AM


Logical conclusions
PaulK writes:

Jesus was wrong.

Thats quite an assertion! Of course, I suppose that you don't hold any particular reverence for Jesus, so I suppose that you feel quite comfortable judging his words as those of a mere man (or even as a myth)

It all boils down to belief...for there are no solid facts that can establish the source of inspiration for much of the Bible.

We can track down the authors in some cases, and we can connect the dots as far as timeframes and authenticity or lack of same....

God can never be proven.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by PaulK, posted 06-23-2007 4:58 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by jar, posted 06-25-2007 10:15 AM Phat has replied
 Message 35 by PaulK, posted 06-25-2007 1:33 PM Phat has taken no action

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 34 of 313 (407246)
06-25-2007 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
06-25-2007 6:17 AM


Re: Logical conclusions
Thats quite an assertion! Of course, I suppose that you don't hold any particular reverence for Jesus, so I suppose that you feel quite comfortable judging his words as those of a mere man (or even as a myth)

That is irrelevant. We can check the statements alleged to have been made by Jesus against reality.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 06-25-2007 6:17 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 06-25-2007 6:51 PM jar has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 35 of 313 (407273)
06-25-2007 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
06-25-2007 6:17 AM


Re: Logical conclusions
It's pretty clear that Daniel predicted the end at the time of Antiochus Epiphanes.

Jesus predicted that it would occur within the next few decades.

If people didn't assume that Jesus couldn't be wrong I don't think that there would be any significant controversy over either point.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 06-25-2007 6:17 AM Phat has taken no action

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Buzsaw, posted 06-26-2007 12:48 AM PaulK has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 313 (407280)
06-25-2007 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by jar
06-24-2007 5:46 PM


Re: More Proof that End Time Prophecy is just nonsense.
The EU has 27 Member States.

I was a fundamentalist Christian during the '70s. At that time, the EU did, in fact, have 10 members, and that was the "proof" that the EU (or the EEC, as I believe it was known as at that time) was linked to the Antichrist.

I've always found it interesting that this linkage became so established among most Dispensationalists, even though many more members have been added since then (notably Greece, Spain, and Portugal in the '80s, which should, I would have thought, have ended this linkage).

Added by edit:
Oops. Just checking, and it was Greece that raised the membership to 10 in 1981. Spain and Portugal then joined in '86.

I wonder which 10 of the 27+ members are supposed to be the ones who are truly running things?

Edited by Chiroptera, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 06-24-2007 5:46 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by jar, posted 06-25-2007 6:33 PM Chiroptera has taken no action

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 2523 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 37 of 313 (407316)
06-25-2007 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Archer Opteryx
06-25-2007 4:50 AM


Re: Post-Hoc Prophecy
Archer writes:

Why didn't anyone call any of these events before they happened? Isn't that what real prophecy is supposed to do?


I once saw a movie about Nostradamus. Whether Nostradamus ever said this in real life, I guess we'll never know.

In the movie, the character that was Nostradamus told his friend that he could see events taking place centuries ahead of time and that he wants to write them down. His friend thought for a minute and said that Nostradamus' work could be used by people for centuries to come to enrich themselves with wealth and power. Nostradamus then said that to prevent this, he would write his prophecies in such a way that they could only be understood AFTER the event had already happened. In other words, he would make sure that noone would be able to use the prophecies to his own ends.

At one point, another character asked Nostradamus why write down his prophecies at all if he didn't want anyone to know ahead of time what will happen, and the character Nostradamus answered that his head hurts unbearably if he doesn't write them down.

I can't remember for the life of me what the movie was called or who made it. It was relatively a cheap budget film played by shakespearian actors.

Anyway, the point is here is an explanation presented to answer the question why can't we use these same sources of prophecy to predict the future? As a science fiction superfan, I can't tell you how many times I've seen science fiction writers present scenarios of how a timeline is interrupted because someone foresaw the future and the destructions that follow. Basically, everyone who ever got a hand in coming up with anything remotely close to time travel and future predictions agree that it is best to not meddle with the natural timeline. Any interference might cause a butterfly affect that would cascade into something we don't want to know.

For example, there was a book I read many years ago about this. A group of time travel cops came back to their present, our future, finding a primitive society that speaks some weird language that none of them had ever heard before, and each one of these guys speak at least 2 dozen languages. While they were traveling through time studying historical events, something must have happened that destroyed their time track.

Anyway, long story short, they finally was able to trace back the exact moment in history that caused the chain reaction. The consul of Rome Africanus was suppose to survive in the 2nd Punic War and eventually defeated Hannibal. Their very presence caused the guy to die and Rome was burned to the ground. No Latin meant no Romance languages.

Isn't it possible that the prophets knew that disrupting the timeline could have catastrophic results? Say somebody prevented 9/11 and saved all those lives. But then one of those lives went on to bear a son and this son eventually becomes the next Hitler. You save 3 thousand lives and you end up killing a billion.

So, isn't it possible that the prophecies of the bible are there purely to prove god's omniscient wisdom rather than telling us ahead of time what will happen?


Disclaimer:

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Archer Opteryx, posted 06-25-2007 4:50 AM Archer Opteryx has taken no action

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 38 of 313 (407331)
06-25-2007 6:33 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Chiroptera
06-25-2007 2:12 PM


End Time Prophecy is just crap.
End Time prophecy is simply nonsense which is why those that are deluded enough to believe in it never stay around and defend it. It is simply crazy folk with absolutely no connection with reality among the believers and conmen hucksters peddling at the top.

But it is BIG money. Sell dem video games, novels and subscription newsletters. And as long as the hucksters declare most of their loot to the IRS, a perfectly legal scam.

AbE:

By the way, since it is absolutely obvious to anything with more brains than a red brick that the EU Prophecy was just nonsense, the latest variation on the Con is to resurrect the Western European Union (WEU) since it still has ten member nations.

Unfortunately, it is also largely defunct with all of the significant functions transfered to the EU already. To make the position of the Prophecy even more ludicrous, there are now 28 Member, Associate and Observer Nations in the WEU.

A big deal was made of the fact that Javier Solano was the head, BUT, the Presidency of the WEU is a rotating six-month position. Hardly the position of the AntiChrist.

They also peddled Tony Blair as the "False Prophet". Now that I can see. ROTFLMAO

Edited by jar, : add the WEU con


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Chiroptera, posted 06-25-2007 2:12 PM Chiroptera has taken no action

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 313 (407334)
06-25-2007 6:36 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by CWHJr
06-24-2007 5:18 PM


Re: Profoundly Put!
Tell me you see none of this and i will quit wasting my time on this forum.

I see none of that.

'Bye.


Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by CWHJr, posted 06-24-2007 5:18 PM CWHJr has taken no action

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 15931
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 40 of 313 (407338)
06-25-2007 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by jar
06-25-2007 10:15 AM


Re: Logical conclusions
and if reality is not originating from God, it originates from.....where, exactly?

Human observation and testing?

Gotcha! :rolleyes: Just checking to see a source that seems more solid than prior assumptions.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by jar, posted 06-25-2007 10:15 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 06-25-2007 7:14 PM Phat has taken no action

  
jar
Member
Posts: 33890
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 41 of 313 (407343)
06-25-2007 7:14 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Phat
06-25-2007 6:51 PM


Re: Logical conclusions
and if reality is not originating from God, it originates from.....where, exactly?

Irrelevant. Where reality originated (if that is even a question) is unimportant to the existence of reality.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 06-25-2007 6:51 PM Phat has taken no action

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 313 (407379)
06-26-2007 12:17 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by CWHJr
06-24-2007 3:58 PM


Re: Arguing prophecy
CWHJr writes:

And if this is true then it is usless to argue prophecy with him.

Yes and no. Yes the Holy Spirit helps us understand and interpret scripture. No in that much prophecy text simply means what the words clearly say and should be comprehendable by anyone reading it and who is willing to let the words stand as written.

The problem is that one cannot do a quick reading of isolated texts and understand without having been in the book to have a head knowledge of the corroborating and related scriptures which apply to a given subject. "The time is at hand" means the time is at hand for the things in the book of Revelation to begin which means the church age is prophecied in the book. Thus imo, given the language used, the seven churches are being typical of seven dispensational periods of the church age, the descriptions in them matching quite well with 7 segments of church history in retrospect. The last church age is followed by the latter day events such as the one we're addressing in this topic concerning the antichrist et al.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by CWHJr, posted 06-24-2007 3:58 PM CWHJr has taken no action

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 313 (407384)
06-26-2007 12:48 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by PaulK
06-25-2007 1:33 PM


Re: Logical conclusions
PaulK writes:

It's pretty clear that Daniel predicted the end at the time of Antiochus Epiphanes.
Jesus predicted that it would occur within the next few decades.

If people didn't assume that Jesus couldn't be wrong I don't think that there would be any significant controversy over either point.

It would be off topic to document most of them, but a number Daniel's prophecies either simply did not happen or could not have happened contemporaneous to when they were written.

As per topic, for example, the "end of sins" and "reconcilliation of iniquity" of Daniel 9:24 did not happen until the vicarious shed blood of Jesus which scripture says "cleanses all sin" I John 1:7.

According to the NT Jesus is the only one who makes for "everlasting righteousness" prophesied in the same verse.

"Anoint the most holy" as per context clearly refers to Jesus, the "most holy" who was anointed by the Holy Spirit as the dove ascended upon him at his baptism. He is clearly the most holy one, (same verse) scripture declaring ALL others to be sinful, coming "short of the glory of God" as per Romans 3:23

"Messiah the Prince" (v 25) who is clearly Jesus as per numerous OT prophecies was to come, again most certainly not contemporaneous to the day written.

So this seventy week period clearly never consumated contemporaneous to when it was written as per the words written in the prophecy.


BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by PaulK, posted 06-25-2007 1:33 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by PaulK, posted 06-26-2007 2:09 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17167
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 44 of 313 (407396)
06-26-2007 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by Buzsaw
06-26-2007 12:48 AM


Re: Logical conclusions
quote:

It would be off topic to document most of them, but a number Daniel's prophecies either simply did not happen or could not have happened contemporaneous to when they were written.

As per topic, for example, the "end of sins" and "reconcilliation of iniquity" of Daniel 9:24 did not happen until the vicarious shed blood of Jesus which scripture says "cleanses all sin" I John 1:7.

According to the NT Jesus is the only one who makes for "everlasting righteousness" prophesied in the same verse.


Yes, Daniel's prophecies did fail in some respects. The seventy week prophey in particular is a bit of a mess since the times don't seem to work out (although clearly the unknown author intended the end to fall in his own time) - and doesn't really work with the various other interpretations that Christians have proposed either (they have to ignore the 70th week or assert that it is entirely separate from the 69 - for which they can give no good reason).

It's just like the Jehovah's Witnesses. Their predictions failed so they keep "reinterpreting" them. With the "1914 generation" interpretation fading I wonder what they're going to come up with next ?

Edited by PaulK, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Buzsaw, posted 06-26-2007 12:48 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by CWHJr, posted 06-26-2007 6:17 PM PaulK has replied
 Message 48 by Buzsaw, posted 06-26-2007 11:34 PM PaulK has replied

  
CWHJr
Junior Member (Idle past 5351 days)
Posts: 8
Joined: 06-22-2007


Message 45 of 313 (407541)
06-26-2007 6:17 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by PaulK
06-26-2007 2:09 AM


Re: Logical conclusions
The bible is written in a manner that requires study. You have obveously been studiing it. However it also reqires faith. This you seem to be lacking. O I don't mean you don't have faith at all. I mean you don't have faith in the bible. Behaps unbelief is a better word. I don't mean that to rile you. I mean that to challenge your thinking. You have a lot of ugly things to say about christians and prophecy in general. Have you ever wondered why christians believe so dogmattically. I have been a Christian for 19 years now and have had so many experiences with Jesus personally that it is hard for me to understand how someone could not believe his word. But I was there 20 years ago. A friend of mine explained some prophetic scriptures to me and the lights went on. I didn't question what he was telling me. I had no reason not to believe what he was telling me. Well since then i have found that only about half of what he told me was true. However, at the time I believed him and that sponned faith in Jesus and through that faith I was set on a journey that I would not give up for the world. I have felt power pass through my body at the mention of Jesus name. I have seen with my own eyes legs grow 2 inches. I have prayed many times and seen many mericles. I have heard testimony after testimony from god fearing people of amazing things from finding lost pocketknives to whole mounds of earth disappearing over night. Now you have no reason to believe me but I am afraid you are the one at a loss at this point, because you cannot take those experiences away from my memory. Jesus is the son of the living God and he CANNOT lie so the prophecies will come true as he said. You are just missing the key to understanding them. You can argue them all you want, you can all Christians all the weird names you want, but in the end, if you don't wake up to the Lord, you are the one who will be put to shame.
I hope with all my heart that that will not be the case, and that is why Christians persivere and try to explain the prophecies the best they can so you just might see.
Now if I haven't totlly ticked you off let me try again.
There is an author called Grant Jeffrey who wrote the book Armageddon Appointment with Destiny. In this book he reveals the math that explains Daniel's 70 weeks.
He reveals leviticus 26:18 "and if ye will notyet for all this hearken unto me, I will punish you seven times more for your sins." With this scripture he does the calcilation. Each day is counted as a year so each week is 7 years.
From 606 bc plus 70 weeks captivity in Babylon = 536 bc. The remaining 360 weeks of years is multiplied by 7 because Israel did not repent of her sin. 360*7=2520 years (2483.8 callendar years) his calculation brings us to may 15 1948, the exact day Israel formed a nation. Although his use of the calendars is in question, his result is quite revealing.
He also reveals that Jesus was cusified on the exact day Daniel said the Messiah would be cut off. This should be proof to any Jew that he is their Messiah. From the day that the order to rebuild came in Daniel to the crusifixion was 69 weeks of years to the day. it is to much callculation to list here but it works out.
Now if scripture proves Jesus is the Messiah, how could he be wrong about Daniels prophecy. That would make him a liar. God can't lie. Yes there are 27 nations in the EU but there are only 10 that have any veto rights and therefore they control the movement of the EU. Solana HAS declared the agreement he is working on to be a 7 year term. It may not happen but so far it sure looks like it will. That we must wait and see. As for christians not telling of prophetic events before they occur, there was a word given before the twin towers, there was a word given before the tsunami, there was a word given before the New Orleans flood, there were words given before many of the Iraq main events. They were given to the body of believers. You just weren't there

Portions OFF TOPIC - Please Do Not Respond to the off topic personal portions of this message or continue in this vein. Stick to furthering the discussion on the topic.
Take comments concerning this warning to the Moderation Thread.
AdminPD

Edited by AdminPD, : Warning


This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by PaulK, posted 06-26-2007 2:09 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Chiroptera, posted 06-26-2007 6:29 PM CWHJr has taken no action
 Message 47 by PaulK, posted 06-26-2007 6:47 PM CWHJr has taken no action
 Message 59 by PaulK, posted 06-27-2007 6:22 PM CWHJr has taken no action

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.1
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2022