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Author Topic:   Were Adam and Eve homo sapiens?
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5945
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 31 of 107 (408313)
07-01-2007 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by IamJoseph
07-01-2007 9:39 AM


The simplification or streamlining is not related to medical technical terms, but to grammar, spelling and phonations. the word 'scuds' (missile) became commonplace only recently, with the Iraq war. But the older the language, the more complex, which contradicts the notion language started with grunts and coos. The hebrew OT is a complex work, representing the epitomy of grammar, taking the shortest route wordage, and this can require a math-like deciphering process, overturning past translations after deliberation. There is no past writing thread exemplying such literature, making it a msytery how it emerged.
Do you have any references to a source that lays out this creationist notion that language is becoming less complex? I've been hearing creationists state this claim off-and-on since 1970 but no one has been able to produce the source of the claim. As a former language geek (studied foreign languages for 8 years before switching to computer languages), I find that claim to reflect an incredible amount of ignorance about languages. Which is not really that surprising, considering it's most likely of American popular origin and Americans have a reputation for being staunch monoglots.
Languages change over time. Some parts become simpler, yet other parts become more complex. The need to balance simplifications with greater complexity -- which other parts of the language needing to take up the slack produced by a simplification -- derives from the need to keep the language functional. Whatever happens to the language, our need to communicate ideas clearly remains.
Take case, for example. Case is used to indicate what function a noun or pronoun serves in the sentence. The eight Indo-European cases were nominative, genitive, dative, accusative, vocative, instrumental, locative, and ablative. Case would be expressed by modifying the nouns, usually with different endings but sometimes also with changes in the root; eg, the Greek nominative for "human male" is aner (alpha, nu, eta, rho), but in other cases the root changes to andr-, from which we get "android" and "androgenous". This modification of words to express case is called "inflection" and languages that possess this trait are called "inflected languages".
Some of the simplifications in the case system are due to the combining of cases, or rather absorption of some cases into the others. For example, the vocative very commonly gets absorbed into the nominative and the instrumental into the dative. Another example is how, in English, the vocative had combined with the nominative and all the other cases, except for a few parts of the genitive that became the possessive case, got combined into a generic "objective" case that includes direct objects, indirect objects, and objects of all the prepositions.
Interesting things, those prepositions. Originally, they didn't exist, but rather the cases served to express those ideas. But then as cases combined, prepositions were used to clarify which use of that case was being applied. As a result, the language became more expressive and more precise. When the locative all by itself would only tell you that the location of something was somehow related to where something else was and it was up to you, the listener, to interpret what that was supposed to mean, a preposition could tell you that object's location with much greater precision, whether it was on top of, under, beside, near, or inside of the locative object -- eg, "La plume de ma tante est sur le table.", so you know that your aunt's pen is on top of the table, because of the preposition, "sur".
Another form of simplification is the loss of inflection. French and Spanish have lost it. German has largely lost it except for the genitive case and a few words in other cases (eg, das Land -> dem Lande), but inflection is retained by those linguistical newcomers, the definite and indefinite articles and by the endings applied to associative adjectives. [DISCLAIMER: my knowledge of German is entirely from before their recent language reform]. English was inflected prior to 1066, but then lost inflection when it got converted to a Frenchified German.
One way to compensate for this loss of inflection is to use word order to convey the same information. English word order is rather complex and must be exact in order to communicate the meaning that the speaker intends. Changing word order every so slightly in a key place can completely change the meaning; eg:
"The dog bites the man."
"The man bites the dog."
have two entirely different meanings.
In an inflected language, word order is very simple and mixing it up may make you sound a bit funny to a native speaker, but the meaning will remain unchanged; eg, the same sentences in German:
"Der Hund beit den Mann." ("The dog bites the man.")
"Den Mann beit der Hund." ("The dog bites the man.")
The declension of the definite article keeps the meaning straight. And the second format, placing the direct or indirect object first, is very commonly used to emphasize that part of the sentence: "No, the dog didn't bite the child. It's the man that he bit."
Another effect of making word order and wording (eg, adding prepositions) as a way of compensating for a simplification of the case system, is that the speaker must be more precise and must pack more information into what he says. One justification for the creationist claim of the devolution of language is to point out how the English translation of a Latin phrase is always so much wordier. What they don't realize is that in Latin it was up to the listener to interpret what the speaker was minimalistically saying, whereas in modern English it's up to the speaker to tell the listener precisely what he's saying, leaving much less of the interpretation up to the listener. It's not that the Latin writer had packed so much more into those few words, but rather that the English is far more expressive and exacting.
The claim that "evolutionists" should expect earlier languages and "more primitive" languages to be less complex almost sounds like another very bizaare creationist claim that I've only come across a couple times -- once in a local creationist organization's newsletter and again on the Answers in Genesis site. This claim is that "evolutionists" would expect the historical ancients (eg, the Egyptians) to be of low intelligence, little more than ape-men, and yet they were very ingenious builders and mathematicians.
That claim is, of course, absurd, since it claims "evolutionists" to believe something that anyone who have given the matter any thought at all would not believe. The last "ape-man" was around one million to two millions years ago, depending on whether we would confer that title on Homo Erectus. The ancient Egyptians were modern humans with the same inherent capacity for intelligence as we have.
By the same token, human language had about a million years post-Homo Erectus to develop. All that we have seen of language is only a few thousands of years of its million-year history, a mere 0.4% of the time that it has had to develop.
, along with present-day humans, It almost sound

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by IamJoseph, posted 07-01-2007 9:39 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3687 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 32 of 107 (408338)
07-02-2007 12:04 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by dwise1
07-01-2007 5:25 PM


quote:
dwise
Take case, for example. Case is used to indicate what function a noun or pronoun serves in the sentence. The eight Indo-European cases were nominative, genitive, dative, accusative, vocative, instrumental, locative, and ablative. Case would be expressed by modifying the nouns, usually with different endings but sometimes also with changes in the root; eg, the Greek nominative for "human male" is aner (alpha, nu, eta, rho), but in other cases the root changes to andr-, from which we get "android" and "androgenous". This modification of words to express case is called "inflection" and languages that possess this trait are called "inflected languages".
I believe you are mistaking 'knowledge' prowess with the understanding what is referred to by 'simpler' in language and writings. These are different paradigms and not contradictory. 'simpler' refers to the expression process, not the new knowledge how things work; indeed the term simpler is derived from an advanced premise to discard the superflous and in the pursuit of speedier communications - to cater to the throwaway instant mindset.
'WORDS' and speech mode, as well as writings, was the ultimate science in ancient times: one had to be the equivalent of an esteemed PHD PROF to be a scribe, and enormous time and expense went into a manuscript or scroll - not only because of the masses being illeterate, but mainly because speech was more elaborate and connected to deeply held beliefs, in the absence of empirical sciences. Deseases were seen as curses and spells, and their antidote was via the spoken words and utterences. The protocol for appearing before a king or preist was formidable.
What has intrigued me here, is that the hebrew alphabetical books (The Mosaic)appeared suddenly and in an already advanced form, without a trail of graduated advancements - from a small nation which appeared late in the scene. We have nothing of similar status from mighty nations such as Egypt, Phoenecia, Sumeria or the far east. All we have are stray bits of alphebets, theorised as prototypes due to similarities - but not a single historical book (a continueing narrative with multiple pages containing identifiable historical factors). This situation continues for almost a 1000 years after the OT emerged. We have nothing today which matches the OT in its grammar, literture and expressionism. It is an anomoly.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by dwise1, posted 07-01-2007 5:25 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3687 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 33 of 107 (408341)
07-02-2007 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by anglagard
07-01-2007 10:06 AM


Re: Usual Junk Assertions
quote:
anglard
This also applies to the alledged australian aboriginals being 60k years old, as per cave markings: their population and mental prowess grads do not sustain that period.
Their 'mental prowess?' Does your lack of understanding of history, science and the NT require you to be a racist?
Not at all. The same would apply to any ancient peoples who do not exhibit the known ratios of time factored population and mental prowess: if any peoples are 60K years old - they would have most probably made it to the moon and back - 54,000 years ago, and their population would be some 100 trillion - even after factoring in all relevent issues such as deaths and deseases.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-02-2007 12:51 AM IamJoseph has replied
 Message 35 by NosyNed, posted 07-02-2007 1:01 AM IamJoseph has replied
 Message 54 by Max Power, posted 07-02-2007 1:50 PM IamJoseph has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 34 of 107 (408343)
07-02-2007 12:51 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by IamJoseph
07-02-2007 12:13 AM


Re: Usual Junk Assertions
Not at all. The same would apply to any ancient peoples who do not exhibit the known ratios of time factored population and mental prowess: if any peoples are 60K years old - they would have most probably made it to the moon and back - 54,000 years ago ...
54,000 years ago their main technology involved banging rocks together. This would not allow them to fly to the moon.
... and their population would be some 100 trillion - even after factoring in all relevent issues such as deaths and deseases.
You have not factored in all relevant issues.
For one thing, you forgot that people have to eat.
It's these little oversights that make creationism so funny.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by IamJoseph, posted 07-02-2007 12:13 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by IamJoseph, posted 07-02-2007 1:23 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9003
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 35 of 107 (408344)
07-02-2007 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by IamJoseph
07-02-2007 12:13 AM


Numbers are good
even after factoring in all relevent issues such as deaths and deseases.
oh good, you've factored all that in! Excellent.
May I see the calculations then?
( lol I thought not)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by IamJoseph, posted 07-02-2007 12:13 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by IamJoseph, posted 07-02-2007 1:18 AM NosyNed has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3687 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 36 of 107 (408347)
07-02-2007 1:18 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by NosyNed
07-02-2007 1:01 AM


Re: Numbers are good
quote:
nosey
oh good, you've factored all that in! Excellent.
May I see the calculations then?
( lol I thought not)
But I'm not trying to be too smart or dogmatic - we have to remember at all times that darwin's evolution - or the origins of humans - are unknown and not resolved even by *THEORIES*. It is not an anomoly to have a variant view based on science and logic.
Re the calculations relating to human population and mental prowess ratios, guess what - I got this from a desolate, barren, dry and fully documented and evidenced region of this planet: its called the Middle-east!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by NosyNed, posted 07-02-2007 1:01 AM NosyNed has replied

Replies to this message:
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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3687 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 37 of 107 (408349)
07-02-2007 1:23 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by Dr Adequate
07-02-2007 12:51 AM


Re: Usual Junk Assertions
quote:
Dr adequate
54,000 years ago their main technology involved banging rocks together. This would not allow them to fly to the moon.
Exactly. But it happens to be the scenario in the middle-east, but only between 5000 to 6000 years ago - but w/o dispute!
quote:
You have not factored in all relevant issues.
For one thing, you forgot that people have to eat.
It's these little oversights that make creationism so funny.
You mean, other peoples in the earliest recordings of and by mankind never had this problem? Now that's more funny.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-02-2007 12:51 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-02-2007 1:29 AM IamJoseph has replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9003
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 38 of 107 (408350)
07-02-2007 1:24 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by IamJoseph
07-02-2007 1:18 AM


Re: Numbers are good
Re the calculations relating to human population and mental prowess ratios, guess what - I got this from a desolate, barren, dry and fully documented and evidenced region of this planet: its called the Middle-east!
So show the calculations where you factored in death and diseases. You can now show how you used some information about the middle east in those calculations.
But I'm not trying to be too smart or dogmatic - we have to remember at all times that darwin's evolution - or the origins of humans - are unknown and not resolved even by *THEORIES*. It is not an anomoly to have a variant view based on science and logic.
That looks like another thing you can explain in a new thread. From here it looks like utter gibberish produced by sticking pins in a dictionary. But maybe it is just my limited skills at reading English. You could explain it with simpler words perhaps.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by IamJoseph, posted 07-02-2007 1:18 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 39 of 107 (408351)
07-02-2007 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by IamJoseph
07-02-2007 1:18 AM


Re: Numbers are good
But I'm not trying to be too smart or dogmatic - we have to remember at all times that darwin's evolution - or the origins of humans - are unknown and not resolved even by *THEORIES*.
If we have to remember that at all times, would you mind telling us what you mean by it?
It is not an anomoly to have a variant view based on science and logic.
Perhaps not an anomaly, but it would certainly be a novelty. However, I do not see the science or logic in asserting that people of the Stone Age could have gone to the moon, or that the Earth can support a human population of 100 trillion.
Re the calculations relating to human population and mental prowess ratios, guess what - I got this from a desolate, barren, dry and fully documented and evidenced region of this planet: its called the Middle-east!
You were not asked the geographical origin of your figures, but simply what they are. Please show us the figures which prove that the Earth can support 100 trillion people.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by IamJoseph, posted 07-02-2007 1:18 AM IamJoseph has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 40 of 107 (408352)
07-02-2007 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 37 by IamJoseph
07-02-2007 1:23 AM


Re: Usual Junk Assertions
Exactly. But it happens to be the scenario in the middle-east, but only between 5000 to 6000 years ago - but w/o dispute!
What are you talking about? What scenario? Banging rocks together? Flying to the moon? How does this relate to technolgy 54,000 years ago?
You mean, other peoples in the earliest recordings of and by mankind never had this problem? Now that's more funny.
No, that's not what I mean, that's some nonsense you made up in your head.
What I mean is that you have not factored in all relevant issues; for one thing, you forgot that people have to eat.
This is why I wrote: "You have not factored in all relevant issues. For one thing, you forgot that people have to eat."
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by IamJoseph, posted 07-02-2007 1:23 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by IamJoseph, posted 07-02-2007 3:09 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3687 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 41 of 107 (408362)
07-02-2007 3:09 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Dr Adequate
07-02-2007 1:29 AM


Re: Usual Junk Assertions
quote:
adequate
What are you talking about? What scenario? Banging rocks together? Flying to the moon? How does this relate to technolgy 54,000 years ago?
The banging of rocks and eating were items posited by yourself as pertaining to ancient humans. Now if the world pops and its mental prowess are known and observed - applicable over the last 6000 years from verifiable sources such as writings, nations, wars, kings, names and dates - then I put it to you that early mankind would have confronted these issues in the M/E - yet they manages to evolve from that point to now without resorting to 60,000 years: how do you account for it?
I nominated 54,000 because we know for a fact that from ancient, non-writting ancient peoples in the M/E upto now, and all the current world population and mental developments took 6000 years, so I subtract that figure from the alledged 60,000 given for aboriginal history. Unless they never emulated the known ratios of population and mental prowess of the known?
quote:
What I mean is that you have not factored in all relevant issues; for one thing, you forgot that people have to eat.
This is why I wrote: "You have not factored in all relevant issues. For one thing, you forgot that people have to eat."
This is common with all humanity - whether 6000 or 60,000. How does it apply?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-02-2007 1:29 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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IamJoseph
Member (Idle past 3687 days)
Posts: 2822
Joined: 06-30-2007


Message 42 of 107 (408363)
07-02-2007 3:17 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by NosyNed
07-02-2007 1:24 AM


Re: Numbers are good
quote:
noseyned
So show the calculations where you factored in death and diseases. You can now show how you used some information about the middle east in those calculations.
This is in our face: we know the current world pop and its mental prowess status. It only becomes vindicated for 6000 years. We can safely assume this because it is recorded, with historical events and graduations of humanity - contrasted with nothing else. There is no history per se before 6000!
quote:
That looks like another thing you can explain in a new thread. From here it looks like utter gibberish produced by sticking pins in a dictionary. But maybe it is just my limited skills at reading English. You could explain it with simpler words perhaps.
It cannot be expressed more simpler. I asked which is vindicated: cross-specie or within-specie? That's hardly a gibberish question. We have genesis stating that all reproduction and mental prowess, including dna transmissions across generations of humanity (memme?) occurs via the 'seed' - is it gibberish or 100% vindicated? My reading says the theory f cross-specie is not vindicated.

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Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 107 (408372)
07-02-2007 4:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jon Paine
06-28-2007 6:54 PM


The question put forth for discussion is, "Were Adam and Eve Homo Sapiens?
Of copuirse they were. Dood, you need to study your crazy insane ignorant Bible toatin' culture a little better
All the fossils found in contradiction to the literal story of Genesis are made up by scientists to further the Satantistic cult of Evilution. remeber Piltdown man? He was just one that got away.
We need to all pray now for a while, for my soul and yours

This message is a reply to:
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Vacate
Member (Idle past 4619 days)
Posts: 565
Joined: 10-01-2006


Message 44 of 107 (408374)
07-02-2007 5:11 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by IamJoseph
07-02-2007 3:17 AM


Re: Numbers are good
including dna transmissions across generations of humanity (memme?) occurs via the 'seed'
You have mentioned similar a few times. What do you mean by seed? You earlier included a chickens egg as a seed. Do you also include Mitosis as seed?
IamJoseph writes:
My reading says the theory f cross-specie is not vindicated.
A decent place to start would be here -
Observed Instances of Speciation
This was just a quick search. There is a lot of information available about the topic. Unfortunatly much of it is behind subsciption fees in science journals. I am sure, however, that more information is available online. A search of these forums is likely to result in a few hits also as I am sure this topic has been covered here before.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by IamJoseph, posted 07-02-2007 3:17 AM IamJoseph has replied

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 303 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 45 of 107 (408377)
07-02-2007 5:18 AM
Reply to: Message 41 by IamJoseph
07-02-2007 3:09 AM


Re: Usual Junk Assertions
The banging of rocks and eating were items posited by yourself as pertaining to ancient humans. Now if the world pops and its mental prowess are known and observed - applicable over the last 6000 years from verifiable sources such as writings, nations, wars, kings, names and dates - then I put it to you that early mankind would have confronted these issues in the M/E - yet they manages to evolve from that point to now without resorting to 60,000 years: how do you account for it?
I nominated 54,000 because we know for a fact that from ancient, non-writting ancient peoples in the M/E upto now, and all the current world population and mental developments took 6000 years, so I subtract that figure from the alledged 60,000 given for aboriginal history. Unless they never emulated the known ratios of population and mental prowess of the known?
WTF?
You have still not explained how people 54,000 years ago could have gotten to the Moon.
This is common with all humanity - whether 6000 or 60,000. How does it apply?
Given any amount of time, the world's population cannot reach 100 trillion, because the world cannot feed that many people. This is a constraint on population which you have failed to take into account.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by IamJoseph, posted 07-02-2007 3:09 AM IamJoseph has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by IamJoseph, posted 07-02-2007 5:57 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
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