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Author Topic:   Surrendering to Jesus/God is Not Biblical
kbertsche
Member (Idle past 2131 days)
Posts: 1427
From: San Jose, CA, USA
Joined: 05-10-2007


Message 286 of 300 (407291)
06-25-2007 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 285 by purpledawn
06-25-2007 2:07 PM


Re: Repentance not Surrendering Control
The story is still about repentance, not giving up control of one's life.
Agreed; the main points are repentance and acceptance. The concepts of surrender or giving up control are not main points at all.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 285 by purpledawn, posted 06-25-2007 2:07 PM purpledawn has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 287 of 300 (407423)
06-26-2007 8:26 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by purpledawn
06-25-2007 8:53 AM


Re: Surrender Required
There are 20 posts left until the end of this thread and I feel that some of the later participants are missing the point of this discussion.
But to support your argument you make assertions, which when one attempts to correct, you enjoy biased censoring from the Admins.
For example that the Holy Spirit is not God - very much related.
And whether the Holy Spirit teaches that Jesus is a Person today
to which one could surrender or not.
These are relevant points. But you have the advantage of being free to make mistatements and be shielded by Off Topic accusations when they are addressed.
But I listed plenty of passages (which were not "about you" personally) to which I read no effective rebuttal.
"And I will put My Spirit within you and CAUSE you to walk in My statutes, and my ordinaces you will keep and do." (Ezekiel 36:26)
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 280 by purpledawn, posted 06-25-2007 8:53 AM purpledawn has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 288 of 300 (407608)
06-27-2007 4:13 AM
Reply to: Message 280 by purpledawn
06-25-2007 8:53 AM


Re: Surrender Required
This is another example of the surrender idea being issued but it doesn't really follow the normal usage of the word surrender.
How to Surrender Control
Surrender is accepting God’s will and yielding our will to His. Surrender involves trusting God without knowing the details of His plan.
Their usage deals with yielding to a course of action, which is one of the definitions of surrender today.
If we look at the etymology of surrender, we see that the word means to give (something) up.
So to yield to a course of action, we can say that we give up our own choice of action to follow another action. IOW, we decide to follow God's commands for our behavior and not other choices.
But we can't literally give up control of our life. We have to make the choices.
The site clarifies this:
Surrender does not mean you avoid personal responsibility, give up, stay in bed all day, or become a doormat. Nor does it mean you allow another person to control you. Establish limits and resolve conflicts, but in love.
But they negated their usage of the word surrender in relation to control. Either we give up control or we don't.
The other issue I have with the "give up control" presentations is that they doesn't address those who are naturally good.
If we have people who have grown up in the church and have followed Gods ways all their life, what do they really give up?
Paul went to the Gentiles who weren't Jewish. They had a lot of changes to make. So they did need to give up their old ways and take on the new ways, but they weren't asked to give up control.
Even Jesus asked the Jews to repent and return to God's ways.
So telling people they must give up control of their life to God/Jesus isn't an accurate statement.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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 Message 280 by purpledawn, posted 06-25-2007 8:53 AM purpledawn has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 289 of 300 (407722)
06-28-2007 3:31 AM


Control By the Seed of God
The Apostle John was surely a mature disciple of Christ. He was both and eyewitness and a close disciple of Jesus. John tells us the Christian experience is a matter of the divine seed controling the behavior of the believer:
"Everyone who has been begotten of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him, and he cannot sin, because he has been begotten of God" (1 John 3:9)
What controls the believer not allowing him or her to practice sin? The divine seed of God. He cannot practice sin because the divine seed which has no sinning nature will not allow him to. To be begotten of God is to receive the divine seed of God. This is a non sinning and righteous life seed implanted into the believer. The divine life in the divine seed controls the believer not allowing them to practice sin.
The question remains "Why then did John in his letter plainly indicate that Christians may sin and also have to confess their sins?"
Obviously, the answer is that once the divine seed is dispensed into man he must learn to surrender up more and more of his life to its influence.
Both surrender and God control are therefore established in the Bible.
Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.
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 Message 290 by purpledawn, posted 06-28-2007 9:52 AM jaywill has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 290 of 300 (407740)
06-28-2007 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 289 by jaywill
06-28-2007 3:31 AM


Re: Control By the Seed of God
quote:
What controls the believer not allowing him or her to practice sin? The divine seed of God.
That goes back to what I addressed in Message 272.
In Message 269 you stated:
jaywill writes:
But divine life is a matter of growth and development and maturity. When you were born you did not instantaneously become an adult right out of your mother's womb. You grew and matured.
But in Message 250 you stated:
jaywill writes:
Yielding to the filling of the Holy Spirit is surrendering to God's control. Yet this control moves man's heart to be single and simple in caring for the will of God. There is a communion of the Holy Spirit in which He regulates our tastes, attitudes, and actions.
My comment to that was that by stating that God regulates our tastes, attitudes, and actions; you remove the notion of growth and development.
What you quoted from 1 John goes more to supporting instantaneous change, which would do better to support that God is actually controlling the person; but it doesn't support growth and development.
1 John 3:6-9
6 No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him. ...
9 No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.
If God truly has control of a Christian's mind and is tweaking things as he sees fit, then there is no excuse for Christians to do anything wrong. The fact that Christians are still capable of doing wrong, shows that God does not literally control their life.
As I understand it, there is disagreement as to whether the epistles of John were written by the one who walked with the earthly Jesus. So it it questionable as to whether the author was an eyewitness.
But if the author meant his statement literally, then again the evidence would be in the behavior of Christians who are born of God.
Now in verse 7, the implication is that we still have control.
Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray.
Even reading the remainder of the letter gives the impression we are still in control.
I still don't see verses or examples in the Bible that show people literally gave up control of their lives to God/Jesus.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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 Message 289 by jaywill, posted 06-28-2007 3:31 AM jaywill has not replied

jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


Message 291 of 300 (407893)
06-29-2007 2:50 AM


and by stating that God regulates our tastes, attitudes, and actions; you remove the notion of growth and development. If God truly has control of a Christian's mind and is tweaking things as he sees fit, then there is no excuse for Christians to do anything wrong. The fact that Christians are still capable of doing wrong, shows that God does not literally control their life.
First Purpledawn leans towards objecting that personal experience does not matter, but only what is written in the Bible matters. Then rather ironically Purpledawn refers to the experience of Christians and says it does matter. "Why then, if regulation is of the Holy Spirit, is the experience of Christians still with sins?" Purpledawn challenges.
You can see that this skeptic wants to have it both ways depending on which way is in favor of his/her argument.
So, experience is in again. Okay. Does growth in the spiritual realm prove that God does not control the one growing? No. It proves that the believers are being transformed from one degree of expression of Christ to another degree of expression as a life long process.
"And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, even as from the Lord Spirit." (2 Cor. 3:17,18)
The source of Christian growth or transformation is the Lord Spirit. OF course the very phrase "Lord Spirit" and "the Lord is the Spirit" indicate rulership and authority. Regulation goes along with lordship and rulership.
But more to the point the transformation is not complete in one instantaeous moment but from one degree of glory to another degree of glory to another degree. This is a life long process as the Lord Spirit pervades more and more areas of the believer's soul.
I think I have already addressed the paradox that one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit is "self control." So the regulation of the Divine Seed or the Lord Spirit is also a bringing about of freedom and self control as Christ blends and mingles with the personality of the believer. Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom.
Christ taught that if we save our soul life we will lose it. But if we lose our soul life for His sake in following Him we shall find it. Control under the life giving Holy Spirit is therefore also the bringing in of freedom.
God does not transform the Christian in one moment all at one time. We could not stand that. By successive degrees, from one expression of Christ to another, we are changed into His image as in our hearts we behold and reflect Him.
"And do not be fashioned according to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of the mind thta you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and well pleasing and perfect." (Romans 12:1)
This passage of Romans 12:1 agrees with 2 Cor. 3:17,18. The metamorphasis [Greek] of the personality in the Christians life is a process taking place. It SHOULD be taking place if the disciples is cooperative and normal in his or her relationship the Lord Jesus.
The light of God penetrates deeper and deeper convicting the Christian of more and more areas where the believer is in transgression. This means the conscience is becoming more and more keen. What was Okay to do yesterday, the beleiver today is convicted that it is not Okay. This is a process of growth.
Yesterday, I argued with my wife and had no feeling of wrong doing. Today I argue and the Holy Spirit says "You should not exchange angry words with your wife." Becoming aware of this I repent and ask that the precious blood of Christ cleanse my conscience. The Holy Spirit then moves into that area of my soul. He regulates my actions in my a speech more with my wife.
Then one day the Holy Spirit enlightens another area. Then on another day another area He illuminates. Deeper and deeper He penetrates into the personality. As He penetrates deeper, the believer must surrender deeper. As we surrender on a deeper and deeper level He moves in and regulates that area.
At the same time we are more and more set free. At the same time we grow in self control. His control is simultaneously the blending of God's life with our life. We lose our old man. We gain or we put on the new man.
Now back to First John verse on the control of the divine seed.
"Everyone who has been begotten of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been begotten of God." (1 John 3:9)
The SPERMA of God controls as the SPERMA of God grows. To be begotten is not the end. To be begotten is the beginning. Here John is speaking of the maturity and the end result of the process of growth. Everyone born of God has this seed of God within. If the believer is normal in growth the divine seed prevents them by control from sinning. He cannot sin because he has been begotten of God.
The divine seed is sinless. It is a seed of life. That life is righteous and does not and cannot sin. That seed is Jesus Christ growing in the believer. And that seed is regulating and control from one degree to another to another every area of the believer's life.
Surrender and control are established in the Bible.
Other excuses offered by Purpledawn that maybe First John was not written by a disciple who walked with Jesus I find irrelevant even if they were true. No Off Topic Flag was raised in this diversion into textural criticism .... yet.
Anyway the promise of the new covenant in Ezekiel agrees strongly with First John 3:10 and 2 Cor. 3:17,18:
"I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take away the heart of stone out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.
And I will put My Spirit within you AND CAUSE YOU to walk in My statutes, and My ordinances you will keep" (See Ezek. 36:25,26)
God will put His divine seed into the new covenant receiver. God will put His Spirit into the new testament believer and "CAUSE" them to walk according to His mingled Divine/Human life as manifested in Jesus Christ, the Executor of the new covenant.
The stony heart is the heart of the old man. The new fleshy heart is soft towards God and is the heart of the new man. The new man is under God's control and also paradoxically has Spirit regulated self control as a fruit of the Spirit.
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Replies to this message:
 Message 292 by Phat, posted 06-29-2007 8:14 AM jaywill has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 292 of 300 (407906)
06-29-2007 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 291 by jaywill
06-29-2007 2:50 AM


Calvanism or Arminianism?
As we wrap this topic up, I want to make several points:
  • The Bible can prove what a believer allows it to say to them.
    There is not simply one way to believe. I understand what you mean by surrender and, in fact, consciously and knowingly did so when I got saved in 1993.
    Since we all have differing opinions on this topic, I wanted to ask you whether your basic belief paradigm is more that of a Calvinist or that of an Arminianist? This site and this website shows the basic differences. Arminianism basically says that God allows us the freedom to choose. Calvinism basically says that God carrys us. Arminianism basically says that God initiates the invitation and that man chooses to respond. (subordination or willful surrender.) Calvinism basically says that God does all the choosing.
    I can see how there is not a lot of difference between willful surrender (of Ego and self will) and subordination, but I maintain that the difference as proposed by this topic thread is that humans have the freedom to initiate on a daily basis. We don't ever lose that responsibility and free choice.
    Edited by Phat, : added features!

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 291 by jaywill, posted 06-29-2007 2:50 AM jaywill has not replied

    purpledawn
    Member (Idle past 3457 days)
    Posts: 4453
    From: Indiana
    Joined: 04-25-2004


    Message 293 of 300 (407908)
    06-29-2007 8:28 AM


    Actions, not Experiences
    As I explained in Message 233, life experiences are not exactly the same and each individual's spiritual journey is just as varied as individual life experiences.
    Individual spiritual experiences are not back on the table. My comments in Message 290 refer to the actions of people that are visible to observers. If people would actually take the time to read the Bible and not just a sentence or two, they would see that the various letters in the NT deal with new believers dealing with sin. They show that the people were still capable of sinning.
    Jaywill has clearly shown that those teaching that we are to give up control of our life to God/Jesus, are presenting conflicting information. They present a verse that says, No one who is born of God will continue to sin... (1 John 3:6-9), but in the next breath claim that the change is an ongoing process.
    I've already agreed in numerous posts and in many ways in this thread that repentance, submission and that changing one's behavior is an ongoing task are supported by the Bible. See Message 1, Message 56, Message 83, Message 153, Message 192, Message 194, Message 219, Message 226, Message 237, Message 255, Message 260, Message 261, and Message 272.
    In Message 260, I stated: The Holy Spirit gives us the wisdom to see our errors and advises us on what we should do. We decide which inclination we are going to follow.
    I like Jaywill's description: Harmonious Coordination, but this description does not imply literally giving up control of one's life. It implies a working together to a common goal.
    As I said in Message 290: I still don't see verses or examples in the Bible that show people literally gave up control of their lives to God/Jesus.

    "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

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     Message 294 by jaywill, posted 06-30-2007 8:26 AM purpledawn has not replied

    jaywill
    Member (Idle past 1941 days)
    Posts: 4519
    From: VA USA
    Joined: 12-05-2005


    Message 294 of 300 (408047)
    06-30-2007 8:26 AM
    Reply to: Message 293 by purpledawn
    06-29-2007 8:28 AM


    Re: Actions, not Experiences
    Jaywill has clearly shown that those teaching that we are to give up control of our life to God/Jesus, are presenting conflicting information. They present a verse that says, No one who is born of God will continue to sin... (1 John 3:6-9), but in the next breath claim that the change is an ongoing process.
    Firstly, I would say that I QUOTED the Apostle John. If I am wrong about the divine seed not allowing the Christians to practice sin then Purpledawn will have to say that the Apostle John is wrong.
    The epistle of First John disallows us to interpret 1 John 3:9 to mean that the moment one becomes begotten of God in regeneration he is incapable of ever again commiting a sin. Why would John tell his Christian audience earlier "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us" ( 1:19).
    Here again we have two sides of the truth. In 1 John 3:9 John is speaking of the final destiny in the maturity of the gowth of divine life within the believer. The seed of the divine life can never allow the disciple to practice sin. So the seed must grow. The seed must develop and expand its influence as the disciple matures from a young child, to a young man, to a mature father. Yes the seed is there. But the disciple must learn to live by that divine seed.
    The whole New Testament shows that maturity is something the new life must grow into.
    "I planted, Apollos watered, but God caused the growth" 1 Cor. 3:6).
    The Apostles like Paul and John plant the seed into people through thier gospel preaching. The life that has been imparted must go through the process of growth. God causes the growth.
    Purpledawn has shown that he/she cannot bear for the Bible to present paradoxes. Actually there are a number of profounc parodoxes in the Bible. The Trinity and Predestination verses free will are a examples of paradoxes.
    Some evangelicals make a big issue that there are no contradictions in the Bible. I am not such person to make a bold claim along that line. I call them paradoxical truths.
    The famous article by Robert Govett entitled The Twofoldedness of Divine Truth deals with this subject in detail. That is that the Bible contains truths presented with TWO sides which are sometimes contradictory. The duty of the believer is to embrace both sides of a truth and not split into schools of opinion arguing one side against the other.
    Robert Govett gives many examples of paradoxes in the Bible.
    In this discussion some are not able to embrace both sides of the truth. It has been made clear that self control is a byproduct and fruit of the Holy Spirit filled life (see Galatians 5). To some people that is enough to form a "NO Surrender, No Give Up Control" school of opinion.
    I have shown the other side of this matter from Scripture and from the Hymns of experienced disciples of Christ whose subjective experiences should not, in my opinion, be ignored in the discussion.
    To illustrate one more time how the Bible itself brings these two paradoxical sides of "God Control" and "Self Control" harmoniously together I draw the reader's attention to Ezekiel again:
    "Then He said to me, Son of man, stand up on your feet, and I will speak with you. And the Spirit entered into me when He spoke to me and caused me to stand up on my feet. And I heard Him who spoke to me." (Ezekiel 2:1,2)
    Here the demand of God comes to the prophet to stand on his feet and hear God's speaking. Yet paradoxically the very supply and empowerment for the prophet to do so comes from the Spirit of God entering into him.
    "And the Spirit entered into me when He spoke to me ... AND CAUSED ME to stand up on my feet."
    Was it God causing the prophet to stand? Or the prophet excercizing his own free will to stand.? The passage is rather mysterious. Some people don't like to hear that the Bible contains something mysteriuus. They want there to be nothing mysterious in the Bible. But the Bible does contain some myterious revelations.
    And in this passage God's demand on the prophet is simultaneously GOd's empoering of the prophet to meet God's demand.
    The philosophical minded can quibble over whether this is strictly God Control ONLY or Self Control ONLY. I am happy to embrace both sides of the truth.
    I think it is no accident that the Holy Spirit led Ezekiel to write this verse. Latter in his prophecy we see God again supplying man and causing man to be empowered to meet the demand of God upon man:
    "And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statues, and My ordinances YOU shall keep"
    (my emphasis in Ezekiel 36:27)
    God will cause. Man will keep. God's Spirit will enter. And man will walk.
    This paradox is developed throughout the New Testament. And this time I will put what I want to say a little differently.
    The truth of man's surremdering up to the control of God in the Bible should not be denied. There are two sides of the paradox. The title of this thread proports that one side is not biblical. And with that I take issue and explain how Purpledawn's challenge is one-sided and therefore not the complete truth of the Bible.
    In closing I would again establish, though Purpledawn avoided the issue:
    Any teaching that the Holy Spirit is not God, or is not a Person of course will each that man is not controlled by God in following Jesus. Of course an absent God will not control. Of course a non living Jesus Christ will not control anything.
    The matter of the [indwelling] Personhood of the Holy Spirit was skillfully avoided by Purpledawn. And it did not surprise me that there was this avoidance.
    I am happy to hear the Purpledawn likes the my use of the word harmonious in this discussion. I also appreciate that Galatians 5:23 says that "self control" is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. That is a crucial contribution to the discussion. But that is not the only passage in Scripture which the fair minded student has to consider.
    The truth is that the one who looses control is the old man. The old godless and self loving soul life. It is no longer I who live.
    The new man is the man with a soft heart toward God. The stony heart of the old man has been removed. The new man is the man with God indwelling. God causes and man cooperates.
    "So then if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old things have passed away; behold they are become new." (2 Cor. 5:16)
    From the beginning of human creation God's plan was that man would take in the life of God as portrayed in the tree of life in Genesis.
    Man was not to live by "the knowledge of good and evil" but by the knowledge of God Himself as the indwelling life. Man was to be controlled by the tree of life. But this control of divine life was harmonious and blended with man's freedom. We shall know the truth and the truth shall make us free. And at the same time Paul says that he cannot do anything against the truth. So the truth sets man free but also being set free the Apostles cannot do anything "against the truth."
    More could be said. That's enough for now.
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    This message is a reply to:
     Message 293 by purpledawn, posted 06-29-2007 8:28 AM purpledawn has not replied

    jaywill
    Member (Idle past 1941 days)
    Posts: 4519
    From: VA USA
    Joined: 12-05-2005


    Message 295 of 300 (408051)
    06-30-2007 8:51 AM


    Becasue I am so verbose I tried to distill a summary of the above post.
    This paradox is developed throughout the New Testament. And this time I will put what I want to say a little differently.
    The truth of man's surrendering up to the control of God in the Bible should not be denied. There are two sides of the paradox. The title of this thread proclaims that one side is not biblical. And with that I take issue and explain how Purpledawn's challenge is one-sided and therefore not the complete truth of the Bible.
    In closing I would again establish, though Purpledawn avoided the issue:
    Any teaching that the Holy Spirit is not God, or is not a Person of course will teach that man is not controlled by God in following Jesus. Of course an absent God will not control. Of course a non living Jesus Christ will not control anything.
    The matter of the [indwelling] Personhood of the Holy Spirit was skillfully avoided by Purpledawn. And it did not surprise me that there was this avoidance.
    I am happy to hear the Purpledawn likes my use of the word harmonious in this discussion. I also appreciate that Galatians 5:23 says that "self control" is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. That is a crucial contribution to the discussion. But that is not the only passage in Scripture which the fair minded student has to consider.
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    purpledawn
    Member (Idle past 3457 days)
    Posts: 4453
    From: Indiana
    Joined: 04-25-2004


    Message 296 of 300 (408109)
    06-30-2007 4:45 PM


    Paradoxes
    The authors in the Bible can write as many paradoxes as they want. Whether their statements appear true but are false or whether their statements appear false but are true, takes a lot more discussion and looking at the reality of when various portions were written.
    John the Elder expressing an opinion that contradicts the author of the book of John is not a paradox as I understand the word paradox.

    "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

    purpledawn
    Member (Idle past 3457 days)
    Posts: 4453
    From: Indiana
    Joined: 04-25-2004


    Message 297 of 300 (408201)
    07-01-2007 7:38 AM


    Incorrect Not Lying
    There are Biblical scholars who consider the epistles of John to be written by John the Elder (or Presbyter), not the disciple John who traveled with Jesus. Edgar Goodspeed is one of those scholars.
    When we read verses such as 1 John 3:9-10 by themselves,
    No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.
    and yet notice that Christians were and are still capable of sinning, we see an incorrect statement.
    Being incorrect doesn't make one a liar. It simply makes one incorrect.
    Now whether the author meant that literally or not, would need further discussion and studying what the point was and the target audience of the author.

    "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

    purpledawn
    Member (Idle past 3457 days)
    Posts: 4453
    From: Indiana
    Joined: 04-25-2004


    Message 298 of 300 (408411)
    07-02-2007 12:46 PM


    Surrender vs Self-Denial
    When doing a search on "surrendering control of one's life to God" on the internet, all the primary matches deal with Christianity.
    Surrender has also been equated with Self-Denial, which is another Christian teaching.
    Surrender is a painful act. It means separation; it means sacrifice; it means self-denial; it means death.
    Oddly enough, to practice self-denial one must have control.
    1. the trait of practicing self discipline
    2. the act of denying yourself; controlling your impulses
    3. renunciation of your own interests in favor of the interests of others

    "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

    purpledawn
    Member (Idle past 3457 days)
    Posts: 4453
    From: Indiana
    Joined: 04-25-2004


    Message 299 of 300 (408418)
    07-02-2007 1:17 PM


    Final Comments
    I'm disappointed we couldn't get through the creative writing of the NT authors and those presenting the teaching today to work through what is really expected.
    It was obvious that neither Jesus nor God expect believers to literally give up control of one's life. I think it is also clear that God does expect believers to learn to control their natural inclinations that served our primitive ancestors well, but can cause havoc in large societies.
    When an adopted child joins a family, they are expected to learn and follow the rules of the family. So when someone chooses to join God's family, they accept that they will be expected to learn and follow God's rules, which is what the Bible supports in general.
    Thanks for the discussion.

    "Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

    AdminPD
    Inactive Administrator


    Message 300 of 300 (408419)
    07-02-2007 1:18 PM


    End of Thread
    300's the limit
    Stow the prose,
    No more discussion
    It's time to close.
    Finis
    See you in another thread. Magic Wand

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