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Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 16 of 670 (408409)
07-02-2007 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by jar
07-02-2007 12:12 PM


Re: The Responsibility to Question
So would you presuppose that God is reasonable, logical and real?

Do you agree that evidence of God is to be found through observing nature?

Do you believe that God can ever be known personally?

I would maintain that God is personal to me, but if you asked me how I know that it is God, I could only say that I have to start by presupposing God to have some attributes such as Love, Intelligence, and Consistency.

Am I making a mistake by presupposing anything?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by jar, posted 07-02-2007 12:12 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 07-02-2007 12:32 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 17 of 670 (408410)
07-02-2007 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
07-02-2007 12:18 PM


Re: The Responsibility to Question
So would you presuppose that God is reasonable, logical and real?

I'm not at all sure what that means?

Real?

If God is unreasonable and illogical, then could we form any conclusions?

You asked how one can "Know a message is from GOD" and I said test the answer against reason, logic and reality.

Do you agree that evidence of God is to be found through observing nature?

No. I may see such evidence but it is simply a belief, no more.

Do you believe that God can ever be known personally?

If I am right. Once you are dead.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 07-02-2007 12:18 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 07-02-2007 12:54 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 18 of 670 (408412)
07-02-2007 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by jar
07-02-2007 12:32 PM


Critics are a dime a dozen
Lets address criticism for a moment.

At EvC, I have observed that many of your critics assert that you do not know the Spirit of God...that you seemingly have no clue what the impartation of the Spirit is.

I know that you will ask me what that means, and I wish that God would impart a quick answer to me!

Basically, some folks believe that humanity is aware of God but that some of us have become more enlightened by accepting God into our hearts and minds. The argument would then be that only those who have this spirit of God become sons of God, while the rest of the folks are left out in the cold.

I used to believe this dogma until I realized that the ones who were supposed to have the importation of exclusivity had no better insight or revelation than anyone else.

My question: Why do you believe that a God who chose only some of the people (or who foreknew that only some would choose)would thus be an evil God?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 07-02-2007 12:32 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 07-02-2007 1:02 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 19 of 670 (408415)
07-02-2007 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
07-02-2007 12:54 PM


Re: Critics are a dime a dozen
My question: Why do you believe that a God who chose only some of the people (or who foreknew that only some would choose)would thus be an evil God?

If GOD is the creator, GOD creates everyone.

If GOD then chooses only some of those She creates and condemns the others, then GOD creates only to punish.

If GOD foreknows the results and still goes on to create folk, then GOD creates only to punish.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 07-02-2007 12:54 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 07-02-2007 1:07 PM jar has responded
 Message 274 by Phat, posted 01-12-2014 1:06 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 20 of 670 (408416)
07-02-2007 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by jar
07-02-2007 1:02 PM


Re: Critics are a dime a dozen
What if God foreknows who will choose Him yet still allows for the decision to be independently made?

What id God foreknows the results, allows it to happen not so much for punishment as for discipline, and allows some to choose wrongly for reasons yet unknown?

Perhaps the second group who chooses wrongly will get another chance on down the road.....


This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by jar, posted 07-02-2007 1:02 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 07-02-2007 1:23 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 21 of 670 (408420)
07-02-2007 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Phat
07-02-2007 1:07 PM


Re: Critics are a dime a dozen
HUH?

Infinite "what if loops"?

If God knows the end results then all of the responsibility for the end result lies with God.

What if God foreknows who will choose Him yet still allows for the decision to be independently made?

If God knows the end result, the decision is not independently made.

What id God foreknows the results, allows it to happen not so much for punishment as for discipline, and allows some to choose wrongly for reasons yet unknown?

And that is different how?

Perhaps the second group who chooses wrongly will get another chance on down the road.....

That is actually likely and has Biblical support.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Phat, posted 07-02-2007 1:07 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 07-09-2007 12:48 PM jar has responded
 Message 339 by Phat, posted 11-12-2014 12:58 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 22 of 670 (409425)
07-09-2007 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
07-02-2007 1:23 PM


What God expects
I suppose that I will take a stab at this:

I was always taught that God was with everyone yet only became personally known to us after we accepted Him (or Her).....

I was also taught that salvation was necessary to complete ones purpose and life.

You know much of the dogma that I was taught....and you have pointed out many of the flaws and ignorances involved in the thinking process.

I have been accused of always reading what others believe and not having an original belief of my own.

This is true in that I blindly accepted what I was taught and never questioned the validity of it.

I have been studying Universalism a little bit...and comparing it with what one minister is saying to me.

One thing I don't understand is the evil God thing you keep bringing up.

Lets discuss it


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 07-02-2007 1:23 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 1:06 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 23 of 670 (409429)
07-09-2007 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
07-09-2007 12:48 PM


Re: What God expects
One thing I don't understand is the evil God thing you keep bringing up.

Do you believe that GOD creates all that is, seen and unseen?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 07-09-2007 12:48 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 07-09-2007 1:09 PM jar has responded
 Message 555 by Phat, posted 12-19-2014 2:45 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 24 of 670 (409430)
07-09-2007 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
07-09-2007 1:06 PM


Re: What God expects
Well...yes.
After all, He has to create everything!

One thing that He does not create, however, is my thinking ability...does He?
I mean, if He creates every thought that I thought, think, or will think, it is no longer I that think.

But for the purpose of your question, yes. He does and has created all that is.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 1:06 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 1:14 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 25 of 670 (409432)
07-09-2007 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Phat
07-09-2007 1:09 PM


Re: What God expects
One thing that He does not create, however, is my thinking ability...does He?
I mean, if He creates every thought that I thought, think, or will think, it is no longer I that think.

So you are saying that God does not know what you will think?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Phat, posted 07-09-2007 1:09 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 07-09-2007 1:21 PM jar has responded
 Message 645 by Phat, posted 07-21-2015 11:21 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 26 of 670 (409433)
07-09-2007 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by jar
07-09-2007 1:14 PM


Re: What God expects
Well, I suppose that If God exists in the eternal past, the immediate present, and the future, He will have to know what I will eventually think! Some folks say that He does not know since we have not yet decided...
Although unknowing of the future, God has predictive (anticipatory) foreknowledge of the future through his intimate knowledge of each individual. As such, he is able to anticipate the future, yet remains fluid to respond and react to prayer and decisions made either contrary or advantageous to His plan or presuppositions.
This is taken from this link....and yes, I am still thinking about my beliefs even as I talk with you. I have not yet concluded what exactly I believe. But...for the purpose of this question, God does ultimately know what I will eventually decide. (I believe)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 1:14 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 1:29 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 27 of 670 (409435)
07-09-2007 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Phat
07-09-2007 1:21 PM


Re: What God expects
But...for the purpose of this question, God does ultimately know what I will eventually decide.

Is that your final answer?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Phat, posted 07-09-2007 1:21 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 07-09-2007 1:34 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 28 of 670 (409436)
07-09-2007 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by jar
07-09-2007 1:29 PM


Re: What God expects
Yes, Regis. ;)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 1:29 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 1:42 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 29 of 670 (409438)
07-09-2007 1:42 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Phat
07-09-2007 1:34 PM


Re: What God expects
So God creates all that is, seen and unseen; and God knows what you will think.

Are Satanists saved?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Phat, posted 07-09-2007 1:34 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 07-09-2007 1:47 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12159
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 30 of 670 (409439)
07-09-2007 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by jar
07-09-2007 1:42 PM


Re: What God expects
jar writes:

Are Satanists saved?

I don't know. I'm not God. But my belief is that if there is such a place as Hell and if hell was never created for humans but only for fallen angels or reprobate mentalities, I would imagine that if a person died today with a reprobate mentality they would end up in Hell....however, God always has veto power.

If we believe that everyone is saved initially by Gods Grace, the Satanist would not have to jump through theological hoops...they would have to acknowledge God as sovereign over their free will, however.

Also, I couldn't imagine a Satanist doing their best by idolizing Satan and all that that belief traditionally stands for.

Who am I to judge, however?

I suppose that Gods Grace could extend to anyone and everyone.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 1:42 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 1:50 PM Phat has responded

  
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