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Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 31 of 670 (409440)
07-09-2007 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Phat
07-09-2007 1:47 PM


Re: What God expects
If we believe that everyone is saved initially by Gods Grace, the Satanist would not have to jump through theological hoops...they would have to acknowledge God as sovereign over their free will, however.

Did you or did you not say that God knows all that they will think?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 07-09-2007 1:47 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 07-09-2007 1:56 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12156
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 32 of 670 (409442)
07-09-2007 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by jar
07-09-2007 1:50 PM


Re: What God expects
I did say that God knows what everyone will think
so...
in response to the flow of this discussion, God would foreknow that a Satanist would choose to be a Satanist.

The question is whether God would have allowed that individual every chance at rationally deciding their future. If the Satanist had been given a jaded view of who God was or who Christ was, they would not really be making a rational and free decision. If, on the other hand, God actually had one last time to speak to their heart and soul right as they died,

if they still freely rejected Him and even if He knew, He would not be evil for mere foreknowledge.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 1:50 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 2:01 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 33 of 670 (409444)
07-09-2007 2:01 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Phat
07-09-2007 1:56 PM


Re: What God expects
The question is whether God would have allowed that individual every chance at rationally deciding their future. If the Satanist had been given a jaded view of who God was or who Christ was, they would not really be making a rational and free decision. If, on the other hand, God actually had one last time to speak to their heart and soul right as they died,

if they still freely rejected Him and even if He knew, He would not be evil for mere foreknowledge.

Did you agree God creates everything that is, seen and unseen?

Did you agree that God foreknows everything a person will think?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Phat, posted 07-09-2007 1:56 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 07-09-2007 2:06 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12156
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 34 of 670 (409445)
07-09-2007 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by jar
07-09-2007 2:01 PM


Re: What God expects
Jar writes:

Did you agree God creates everything that is, seen and unseen?

Yes, but I may consider the open theistic argument....since IF God knows everything unseen, He leaves us with no real freewill.... :confused: but....since I have to make a stand, I will say that God ultimately foreknows everything seen and unseen...yes.

Jar writes:

Did you agree that God foreknows everything a person will think?

*sigh* Yes.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 2:01 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 2:10 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 35 of 670 (409447)
07-09-2007 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Phat
07-09-2007 2:06 PM


Re: What God expects
If that is true, then what you said in Message 32

The question is whether God would have allowed that individual every chance at rationally deciding their future. If the Satanist had been given a jaded view of who God was or who Christ was, they would not really be making a rational and free decision. If, on the other hand, God actually had one last time to speak to their heart and soul right as they died,

if they still freely rejected Him and even if He knew, He would not be evil for mere foreknowledge.

is simply a farce. God already knows what the person will choose.

Is that correct?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Phat, posted 07-09-2007 2:06 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 07-09-2007 2:23 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12156
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 36 of 670 (409449)
07-09-2007 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by jar
07-09-2007 2:10 PM


Re: What God expects
I suppose that technically, yes. God knows what the person ultimately will choose.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 2:10 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 2:28 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 37 of 670 (409451)
07-09-2007 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Phat
07-09-2007 2:23 PM


Re: What God expects
I suppose that technically, yes. God knows what the person ultimately will choose.

Okay.

So according to you, your God created someone that She knew would reject her.

Next step.

Is the Satanist who rejects God saved?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Phat, posted 07-09-2007 2:23 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 07-09-2007 2:41 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12156
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 38 of 670 (409454)
07-09-2007 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by jar
07-09-2007 2:28 PM


Re: What God expects
Jar writes:

Next step.

Is the Satanist who rejects God saved?

Well...if so, there is no Hell. also if so, it obviously does not matter how people behave.

without getting into all that, I'll just say that this is where Im not sure of my belief.

If I choose universalism, I would say that the Satanist is saved.

If I choose exclusivism, I would say that the satanist is cooked.

So I guess I am forced to either choose whether God chooses us or whether we choose God.

Many say that God chooses all yet we must respond. Others say that it does not matter what we choose....

I confess Im stuck at this point. I'll go with God doing the choosing.

Gods mercy is infinite.

Does this mean that nobody goes to Hell, then?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 2:28 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 2:51 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 39 of 670 (409455)
07-09-2007 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Phat
07-09-2007 2:41 PM


Re: What God expects
You are trying to change the subject.

I asked:

Okay.

So according to you, your God created someone that She knew would reject her.

Next step.

Is the Satanist who rejects God saved?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Phat, posted 07-09-2007 2:41 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 07-09-2007 3:18 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12156
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 40 of 670 (409459)
07-09-2007 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by jar
07-09-2007 2:51 PM


Re: What God expects
OK. I'll say No, for the purpose of this argument.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 2:51 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 3:21 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 41 of 670 (409461)
07-09-2007 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Phat
07-09-2007 3:18 PM


Re: What God expects
So belief in God is not necessary for salvation.

Correct?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Phat, posted 07-09-2007 3:18 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 07-09-2007 3:28 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12156
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 42 of 670 (409462)
07-09-2007 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by jar
07-09-2007 3:21 PM


Re: What God expects
Jar writes:

So belief in God is not necessary for salvation.

Assuming that all are saved, I guess not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 3:21 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 3:34 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 43 of 670 (409465)
07-09-2007 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Phat
07-09-2007 3:28 PM


Re: What God expects
There you go adding qualifiers.

Think something through for a change.

Did God create the Satanist?

Did God have foreknowledge of what the Satanist would think and do?

Will the Satanist be saved?

Is belief necessary for salvation?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Phat, posted 07-09-2007 3:28 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 07-10-2007 5:22 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12156
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 44 of 670 (409655)
07-10-2007 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by jar
07-09-2007 3:34 PM


Re: What God expects
Jar writes:

Did God create the Satanist?

Phat writes:

Not as a Satanist. God creates freewill Beings, not preprogrammed automatons.

Did God have foreknowledge of what the Satanist would think and do?

Phat writes:

Yes. God foreknows what will happen, IMB> Open Theists disagree, as I said earlier.

Will the Satanist be saved?

Phat writes:

Unknowable, except that my belief is that the self proclaimed Satanist will have every opportunity to allow their consciousness to be fully influenced.

Is belief necessary for salvation?

Thats the question, is it not?
I don't know. Does God give us the full opportunity to make the best decision that we can make? Is there a better way than our own freewilled ways? Does God care?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 3:34 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 07-10-2007 5:26 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 45 of 670 (409657)
07-10-2007 5:26 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by Phat
07-10-2007 5:22 PM


Re: What God expects
You are being inconsistent again.

You said God foreknows every decision that will be made. If that is the case there is no freewill and God most certainly did create the Satanist.

If we are going to get anywhere you need to stop simply changing what you believe every other line.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by Phat, posted 07-10-2007 5:22 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Phat, posted 07-10-2007 10:07 PM jar has responded
 Message 229 by Phat, posted 10-17-2011 2:53 PM jar has responded

  
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