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Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 32 of 675 (409442)
07-09-2007 1:56 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by jar
07-09-2007 1:50 PM


Re: What God expects
I did say that God knows what everyone will think
so...
in response to the flow of this discussion, God would foreknow that a Satanist would choose to be a Satanist.
The question is whether God would have allowed that individual every chance at rationally deciding their future. If the Satanist had been given a jaded view of who God was or who Christ was, they would not really be making a rational and free decision. If, on the other hand, God actually had one last time to speak to their heart and soul right as they died,
if they still freely rejected Him and even if He knew, He would not be evil for mere foreknowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 1:50 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 2:01 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 34 of 675 (409445)
07-09-2007 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by jar
07-09-2007 2:01 PM


Re: What God expects
Jar writes:
Did you agree God creates everything that is, seen and unseen?
Yes, but I may consider the open theistic argument....since IF God knows everything unseen, He leaves us with no real freewill.... but....since I have to make a stand, I will say that God ultimately foreknows everything seen and unseen...yes.
Jar writes:
Did you agree that God foreknows everything a person will think?
*sigh* Yes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 2:01 PM jar has replied

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 Message 35 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 2:10 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 36 of 675 (409449)
07-09-2007 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by jar
07-09-2007 2:10 PM


Re: What God expects
I suppose that technically, yes. God knows what the person ultimately will choose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 2:10 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 2:28 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 38 of 675 (409454)
07-09-2007 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by jar
07-09-2007 2:28 PM


Re: What God expects
Jar writes:
Next step.
Is the Satanist who rejects God saved?
Well...if so, there is no Hell. also if so, it obviously does not matter how people behave.
without getting into all that, I'll just say that this is where Im not sure of my belief.
If I choose universalism, I would say that the Satanist is saved.
If I choose exclusivism, I would say that the satanist is cooked.
So I guess I am forced to either choose whether God chooses us or whether we choose God.
Many say that God chooses all yet we must respond. Others say that it does not matter what we choose....
I confess Im stuck at this point. I'll go with God doing the choosing.
Gods mercy is infinite.
Does this mean that nobody goes to Hell, then?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 2:28 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 2:51 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 40 of 675 (409459)
07-09-2007 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by jar
07-09-2007 2:51 PM


Re: What God expects
OK. I'll say No, for the purpose of this argument.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 2:51 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 3:21 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 42 of 675 (409462)
07-09-2007 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by jar
07-09-2007 3:21 PM


Re: What God expects
Jar writes:
So belief in God is not necessary for salvation.
Assuming that all are saved, I guess not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 3:21 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 3:34 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 44 of 675 (409655)
07-10-2007 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by jar
07-09-2007 3:34 PM


Re: What God expects
Jar writes:
Did God create the Satanist?
Phat writes:
Not as a Satanist. God creates freewill Beings, not preprogrammed automatons.
Did God have foreknowledge of what the Satanist would think and do?
Phat writes:
Yes. God foreknows what will happen, IMB> Open Theists disagree, as I said earlier.
Will the Satanist be saved?
Phat writes:
Unknowable, except that my belief is that the self proclaimed Satanist will have every opportunity to allow their consciousness to be fully influenced.
Is belief necessary for salvation?
Thats the question, is it not?
I don't know. Does God give us the full opportunity to make the best decision that we can make? Is there a better way than our own freewilled ways? Does God care?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by jar, posted 07-09-2007 3:34 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 07-10-2007 5:26 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 46 of 675 (409701)
07-10-2007 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by jar
07-10-2007 5:26 PM


Re: What God expects
Im trying to be consistent!
I don't see why foreknowledge negates freewill. Just because God knows that something will happen does not mean that the decision was not freely made.
...say that I held a certain number of fingers behind my back and you had x-ray vision and could see them. Would that affect how many fingers that I chose to present?
add by edit: It seems that the only thing we don't have freewill about is how to stump God! I think thats fair.
Edited by Phat, :

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by jar, posted 07-10-2007 5:26 PM jar has replied

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 Message 47 by jar, posted 07-10-2007 10:23 PM Phat has replied
 Message 49 by Parasomnium, posted 07-11-2007 3:51 AM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 48 of 675 (409742)
07-11-2007 3:25 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by jar
07-10-2007 10:23 PM


Re: Back to basics.
Jar writes:
Does God create everything that is, seen and unseen?
He does not create my thoughts, does He? Lets think about this for a moment.
I mean, I'm not sure about the Omnipotence versus Freewill thing!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by jar, posted 07-10-2007 10:23 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by jar, posted 07-11-2007 10:04 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 51 of 675 (409819)
07-11-2007 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by jar
07-11-2007 10:04 AM


Re: Back to basics.
Jar writes:
We are not dealing with that yet but rather if God creates you?
Whether I evolved or not, I believe that God foreknew me. He surely created me indirectly, if not directly.
Thats a loaded term....create.
Of course I believe that at the very beginning of time as we know it, God had a definite hand at creating everything originally. In other words, matter never eternally existed...it was brought into existence Ex Nihilio.
Likewise, every soul that has ever lived was foreknown by God, IMB.
My point is whether or not by His foreknowledge, He could be said to have actually created my thoughts as I formed them. In response to that, I say no.
He may well know what I will be thinking five years from now at 2:30 am (assuming I am alive) for it is certainly within the definition of His abilities.
So... a short answer to your question is No. God has not directly created everything seen and unseen. Part of what is unseen is the future thoughts that I may have.
I believe that God foreknows everything I think, thunk, and shall think....but I don't believe that He initiated the creation of the logic (or illogic) of those thoughts.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by jar, posted 07-11-2007 10:04 AM jar has replied

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 Message 52 by jar, posted 07-11-2007 1:26 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 53 of 675 (409897)
07-12-2007 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by jar
07-11-2007 1:26 PM


Re: Back to basics.
I don't see how just because God is all aware that He is all controlling.
Am I being dense?
Your Robot analogy is not a good one.
Lets say that God foreknows the future. The only way that freewill could be preserved, according to your logic, is if freewill by definition had to include actions that God never foresaw.
This presupposes more than one possible future.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by jar, posted 07-11-2007 1:26 PM jar has replied

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 Message 54 by jar, posted 07-12-2007 9:34 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 55 of 675 (410594)
07-16-2007 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by jar
07-12-2007 9:34 AM


Re: Back to basics.
I certainly think that He could if He so wanted.
For the purpose of this discussion, I will say that God has a suspension of foreknowing in order to allow our freewill decisions to manifest themselves fully in time.
I still don't see why He cannot foreknow and yet not directly or indirectly choose reality by merely foreknowing.
Some things have no choice. They simply are.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by jar, posted 07-12-2007 9:34 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by jar, posted 07-16-2007 10:45 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 57 of 675 (410618)
07-16-2007 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by jar
07-16-2007 10:45 AM


Re: Back to basics.
Jar writes:
Is God the Creator?
Yes. God did not directly create me...my parents did that. God foreknew what my eventual character would be, however. He can theorize all of the potential avenues that I will decide to take, so He sees my potential future as one among many possibilities. He chooses to allow me to actualize my destiny, however.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

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 Message 56 by jar, posted 07-16-2007 10:45 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by jar, posted 07-16-2007 11:32 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 59 by jar, posted 07-16-2007 11:46 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 60 of 675 (410627)
07-16-2007 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by jar
07-16-2007 11:46 AM


Re: Back to basics.
Jar writes:
Does God foreknow which decisions you will make?
This is a toughie..but I will commit and say yes. God foreknows every eventuality

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by jar, posted 07-16-2007 11:46 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 61 by jar, posted 07-16-2007 12:09 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 62 of 675 (410633)
07-16-2007 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by jar
07-16-2007 12:09 PM


Re: Back to basics.
Jar writes:
So God is the creator and God foreknows every decision that you will make.
Yes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by jar, posted 07-16-2007 12:09 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by jar, posted 07-16-2007 12:36 PM Phat has replied

  
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