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Author Topic:   How does science disprove the Bible?
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 310 (407017)
06-23-2007 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Dragoness
06-22-2007 11:20 PM


quote:
In the six-hundredth year of Noah’s life, in the second month, on the seventeenth day of the month, on that day all the fountains of the great deep burst forth, and the windows of the heavens were opened. Genesis 7:11
We also know that the Bronze Age Middle Eastern cosmology is incorrect: the earth does not float on a huge ocean, and the sky is not a dome holding back water in the heavens.
quote:
It is he who sits above the circle of the earth,
and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers;
who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
and spreads them like a tent to live in....
Isaiah 40:22
We also know that the earth is not a flat disk covered by a solid sky.
-
But it isn't science that disproves the Bible, but common sense. Check out the four different accounts of the discovery of the empty tomb at the end of the four Gospels; for a recent event observed by still living witnesses, and the most important historical event in human history to boot, and being inspired by the Holy Ghostwriter, it seems remarkable that the Gospellers couldn't get the basic facts straight, giving different details about who it was who visited the tomb and what they saw there.
And don't forget the different versions of Judas' death in Matthew 27:5 and Luke 1:18. So much for literal inerrancy.
-
And let's not forget the dodgy theology. God creates humans, knowing full well that he is going to end up damning the majority to eternal torment. Adam and Eve disobey, and somehow that means all humans have an automatic ticket to Hell. It is part of human nature ot sin, yet somehow that makes each human guilty. Somehow, omnipotent God cannot abide by this "sin" stuff, no matter how trivial. Finally, the only way God can figure out a way out of the mess he himself created is to incarnate himself as a human being and be painfully executed as a common criminal -- and people who believe in this somehow get these "sins" forgiven. Does any of this make even one lick of sense?
It's alright if you dig on weird metaphysics, I guess, but, like New Agers, I can't figure out why these people don't see how silly they seem.

Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Dragoness, posted 06-22-2007 11:20 PM Dragoness has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by Doddy, posted 06-23-2007 7:33 PM Chiroptera has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 33 of 310 (407118)
06-24-2007 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by shiloh
06-24-2007 12:32 AM


BWAHAHAHA!
There is no contradiction and the different versions can be reconciled in this way Judas hung himself (possibly on a tree branch over a ledge) and then later falling after a couple days of rot and hitting the ground a splitting open.
Yeah, I've heard this sort of thing before, and it really tells you something about literalists when they can say stuff like this with a straight face.
My favorite version, though, is the idea that Judas hung himself with his intestines.
-
This is what is beautiful about the bible it does not try to "get together and corrobate for the sake of establishing a false story"....
No, I guess what is beautiful about the Bible is that it is a bunch of different dudes independently writing down their own false stories.

Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by shiloh, posted 06-24-2007 12:32 AM shiloh has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 310 (407119)
06-24-2007 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Doddy
06-23-2007 7:33 PM


Oops. I'm not sure how I got that one wrong. Except maybe I was thinking of Acts as the sequel to Luke.
Thanks, Dod.

Actually, if their god makes better pancakes, I'm totally switching sides. -- Charley the Australopithecine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Doddy, posted 06-23-2007 7:33 PM Doddy has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 124 of 310 (409154)
07-07-2007 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by iceage
07-07-2007 5:32 PM


I dunno, guys. Once one accepts an omnipotent god performing miracles, I don't see how this part is unreasonable. Well, I admit, it does seem strange to me that an omnipotent god would play optical illusion tricks rather than just stopping the spinning earth, but what do I know about omnipotent gods when they choose their favorite tribes?
This is nothing like the story of Judas who, while walking in field, had his guts burst open alien-like, and then, as he fell off a ravine, the tatters of his clothing (torn by the bursting guts) tangled around his neck and caught on a ledge, strangling him. Or whatever the literalist apologists would have you believe. Now that is some major spinnin'!

Q: If science doesn't know where this comes from, then couldn't it be God's doing?
A: The only difference between that kind of thinking and the stereotype of the savage who thinks the Great White Hunter is a God because he doesn't know how the hunter's cigarette lighter works is that the savage has an excuse for his ignorance. -- jhuger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by iceage, posted 07-07-2007 5:32 PM iceage has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 188 of 310 (409299)
07-08-2007 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by ICANT
07-08-2007 9:37 AM


Re: Re-Time
Hi, I.
We are talking about a MIRACLE if I remember correctly.
....
You want to limit the amount of power God has.
No, what we want to do is to use the very plain evidence in front of us to determine whether the alleged miracle did occur.
Suppose, for example, that we all know that Joe Blow died at 5:07 pm on 5 July. Now suppose that someone makes the claim that, through a miracle, Joe was resurrected and still lives. What would be the evidence for the claim? Well, for starters, I would expect to see Joe walking around alive. Now, if he is walking around, we could still argue whether he was truly dead to begin with, but at the very least if I check and Joe is still dead, then I have reason to doubt that the claimed miracle ever occurred. Sure, maybe Joe was resurrected but died all over again, but if I see no evidence that at any point after 5 July Joe was ever alive, and if all indications are that Joe has been lying in the morgue since 5 July, I think it would be a safe bet to assume that the claims of a miracle were in error to begin with.
For instance, it is granted that an omnipotent god could have created the universe all at once (or during a seven day time period) only 6000 years ago. But what would such a created universe look like? Well, for starters, since this god could have just snapped her fingers and created all the rocks all at once, I would expect that radiometric dating would consistently give dates less than 6000 years for all the rocks. Instead, we see dating that is so consistent that we can reconstruct a four and a half billion year history of the earth. Creationists try to argue about "changing rates of radioactive decay", but this really makes no sense -- why would a god, who can do anything, so such a complicated, non-intuitive manner, especially since this very method, our omniscient god knows, will mislead people into coming to an incorrect conclusion?
The same with this sun business. An omnipotent god could have arranged for the shadow on the sun dial to turn back 10 degrees. For the movement of the sun, 10 degrees is a pretty large amount; there were civilizations at this time that would have noticed this, and the fact that it wasn't noticed gives us reason to doubt it.
Unless this is yet another miracle that the omnipotent god arranged in such a way so as to leave no evidence of it occurring. Maybe it was some sort of local phenomenon -- and the fact that the claim has been made that it only occurred in the courtyard is interesting. What makes someone think that it wasn't some sort of magic sleight-of-hand trick arranged by the prophet to fool Hezekiah? What makes someone think that this isn't just a legend that came into being sometime after the alleged occurrence?
This is the problem with trying to argue away the lack of evidence of a supposed miracle. Why would someone just accept such a miraculous occurrence without evidence when there are more mundane explanations for the phenomenon? I think that the fact that someone continues to insist that Joe Blow was actually resurrected by god despite the fact that Joe is still lying in the morgue and there is no sign that he's moved since the 5th tells us more about the believer than about the alleged miracle.

Q: If science doesn't know where this comes from, then couldn't it be God's doing?
A: The only difference between that kind of thinking and the stereotype of the savage who thinks the Great White Hunter is a God because he doesn't know how the hunter's cigarette lighter works is that the savage has an excuse for his ignorance. -- jhuger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by ICANT, posted 07-08-2007 9:37 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 191 by ICANT, posted 07-08-2007 4:28 PM Chiroptera has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 192 of 310 (409315)
07-08-2007 4:42 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by ICANT
07-08-2007 4:28 PM


Re: Re-Time
Your post doesn't seem to address the point I was trying to make; but since I may not have been very careful in reading the previous portions of the thread, it is possible that my post wasn't quite on the point that was being discussed.
I will say this, though:
You believe magic (singularity from nowhere out of nothing, big bang) universe comes into existence.
I would be very careful about making assumptions about what I believe. I have discussed my opinions on Big Bang and the origins of the universe before, but it is possible that you haven't read those threads. But those threads would be far more appropriate for this topic.

Q: If science doesn't know where this comes from, then couldn't it be God's doing?
A: The only difference between that kind of thinking and the stereotype of the savage who thinks the Great White Hunter is a God because he doesn't know how the hunter's cigarette lighter works is that the savage has an excuse for his ignorance. -- jhuger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by ICANT, posted 07-08-2007 4:28 PM ICANT has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 201 of 310 (409330)
07-08-2007 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 191 by ICANT
07-08-2007 4:28 PM


An explanation of the attempted point.
It might seem rude to just dismiss your post as not germane to my point, without attempting to clarify what my point was.
The discussion was about, I thought, the miracle of the movement of the shadow on Hezekiah's sundial could be accepted in the absence of extra-Biblical evidence for that fact. The rest of the gibberish in my post were attempts at analogies to explain my point. I apologize that they were evidently confusing enought to obscure the point.
What I meant to say is that here we have an account of the backwards movement of the shadow of a sundial, an account that is not verified by any other source. What can be the explanation of this movement? One explanation is that it was a miraculous event, and that the reason other people didn't notice it was that either it was simply not noticed, or that it was some sort of effect that was confined to a small location.
Another possible explanation is that it never happened. We already know that even modern histories can incorporate accounts of events that didn't actually happen or the omission of important events that did happen, so this explanation poses no real conceptual difficulties.
So the question is why, seeing how there is a perfectly mundane explanation that is consistent with the evidence (or, in this case, the lack of evidence) and is consistent with the way we know the universe works and the way people behave (including inventing fictitious history, sometimes inadvertantly), why so many people must assume that the best explanation in this case is a miraculous event for which God is responsible; in fact, I am wondering why the miracle explanation is even a serious contender as a possibility.

Q: If science doesn't know where this comes from, then couldn't it be God's doing?
A: The only difference between that kind of thinking and the stereotype of the savage who thinks the Great White Hunter is a God because he doesn't know how the hunter's cigarette lighter works is that the savage has an excuse for his ignorance. -- jhuger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 191 by ICANT, posted 07-08-2007 4:28 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by ICANT, posted 07-08-2007 9:56 PM Chiroptera has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 246 of 310 (409412)
07-09-2007 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by ICANT
07-08-2007 9:56 PM


Re: An explanation of the attempted point.
I guess that my point was missed.
The question isn't whether an omnipotent being can perform miracles. The question is whether an omnipotent being did perform a miracle in this particular instance, or whether there is a simpler, more mundane explanation.

Q: If science doesn't know where this comes from, then couldn't it be God's doing?
A: The only difference between that kind of thinking and the stereotype of the savage who thinks the Great White Hunter is a God because he doesn't know how the hunter's cigarette lighter works is that the savage has an excuse for his ignorance. -- jhuger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by ICANT, posted 07-08-2007 9:56 PM ICANT has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 302 of 310 (409656)
07-10-2007 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 301 by crashfrog
07-10-2007 5:18 PM


Re: Genesis is a Myth
Why does it have to be literally true to tell us truths?
Evidently, because it makes it easier to justify cramming those truths down other people's throats.

Q: If science doesn't know where this comes from, then couldn't it be God's doing?
A: The only difference between that kind of thinking and the stereotype of the savage who thinks the Great White Hunter is a God because he doesn't know how the hunter's cigarette lighter works is that the savage has an excuse for his ignorance. -- jhuger

This message is a reply to:
 Message 301 by crashfrog, posted 07-10-2007 5:18 PM crashfrog has not replied

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