EvC Forum: Can Christians Believe That God Is Immanant In The Natural World?

Email This Thread

Newer Topic | Older Topic

Author

Topic: Can Christians Believe That God Is Immanant In The Natural World?

ringo

Member (Idle past 434 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

Normal Thread Display

Message 4 of 88 (409618)
07-10-2007 2:27 PM

Reply to: Message 1 by anastasia
07-10-2007 2:02 PM

anastasia writes:

Do we as Christians often see God as completely transcendent, perhaps mistakenly?

Isn't it pretty obvious that we can only "see" - i.e. sense/observe/feel - the immanent bits of "God"? Any ideas about transcendence are strictly speculation, produced by the "god" immanent in all of us.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
	Message 1 by anastasia, posted 07-10-2007 2:02 PM		anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 6 by anastasia, posted 07-10-2007 3:47 PM		ringo has replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 434 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

Normal Thread Display

Message 8 of 88 (409651)
07-10-2007 5:06 PM

Reply to: Message 6 by anastasia
07-10-2007 3:47 PM

anastasia writes:

If you are saying God exists and IS immanant in us, is it the 'god' in us sensing God, or the human sensing God?

I'm saying: How can we know?

If God exists, and if we can sense Him, it can only be something inside us sensing Him. How can we know whether we are sensing something inside or outside? Where is the boundary of our "self"?

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
	Message 6 by anastasia, posted 07-10-2007 3:47 PM		anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 9 by anastasia, posted 07-10-2007 6:34 PM		ringo has replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 434 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

Normal Thread Display

Message 11 of 88 (409675)
07-10-2007 7:00 PM

Reply to: Message 9 by anastasia
07-10-2007 6:34 PM

anastasia writes:

This was supposed to be a discussion on whether we may believe, as Christians, that God is immanant in the actions of evolution or nature in general.

I don't see it as a question of whether you "can" or "may" believe that God is immanent in the actions of evolution/nature. I think you have to. Otherwise you're stuck with empty beliefs about a "transcendence" that you can never really know anything about.

The whole "free will" business implies a responsibility to use our faculties. An intellectually honest approach can't be based solely on "I believe".

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
	Message 9 by anastasia, posted 07-10-2007 6:34 PM		anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 12 by anastasia, posted 07-10-2007 9:16 PM		ringo has replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 434 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

Normal Thread Display

Message 14 of 88 (409697)
07-10-2007 9:57 PM

Reply to: Message 12 by anastasia
07-10-2007 9:16 PM

anastasia writes:

Is this system so shut in as to be self-sufficient and incapable of receiving anything from without?

First, it depends on what you mean by "this system". If you mean the (material) earth/sun system then yes, it is self-sufficient.

Second, there's a difference between "self-sufficient" and "incapable of receiving anything from without". The system might very well be able to take in something from without if there was anything there.

Third, I have no idea what this has to do with the topic.

In other words, can God be acting within evolution?

*shrug* If He is acting, He must be acting within evolution. You might as well ask if the wind can act within the atmosphere.

Thus I asked if evolution in any way precludes this idea, and even if it does not, does doctrine?

As far as I know, evolution doesn't preclude "acts of God" - it just tries to explain them. As for doctrine, how can it preclude the truth?

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
	Message 12 by anastasia, posted 07-10-2007 9:16 PM		anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 15 by Grizz, posted 07-10-2007 10:07 PM	ringo has replied
	Message 17 by anastasia, posted 07-10-2007 10:21 PM	ringo has replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 434 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

Normal Thread Display

Message 18 of 88 (409710)
07-10-2007 10:29 PM

Reply to: Message 15 by Grizz
07-10-2007 10:07 PM

Grizz writes:

My point is any 'external' agent able to influence a system would itself be part of the system since it would be just another causal agent within a larger system. It would still be part of the 'Universe' because it is causally connected to it. There would be nothing 'external' about it.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I've been driving at.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
	Message 15 by Grizz, posted 07-10-2007 10:07 PM		Grizz has not replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 434 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

Normal Thread Display

Message 19 of 88 (409712)
07-10-2007 10:33 PM

Reply to: Message 17 by anastasia
07-10-2007 10:21 PM

anastasia writes:

If you believed that God created everything, and you also believed in evolution, what part would you say God played in creation? When did his creating begin and end?

Hypothetically, the creation would consist of the finger-snap that created the machinery.

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
	Message 17 by anastasia, posted 07-10-2007 10:21 PM		anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 23 by anastasia, posted 07-10-2007 11:17 PM		ringo has replied

ringo

Member (Idle past 434 days)

Posts: 20940

From: frozen wasteland

Joined: 03-23-2005

Normal Thread Display

Message 24 of 88 (409734)
07-11-2007 12:38 AM

Reply to: Message 23 by anastasia
07-10-2007 11:17 PM

anastasia writes:

What if the entire universe is capable of doing so? What if it does this by a series of random explorations? What if it does this through trial and error?

Isn't that the antithesis of a plan?

Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
	Message 23 by anastasia, posted 07-10-2007 11:17 PM		anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 25 by anastasia, posted 07-11-2007 1:05 AM		ringo has not replied

Date format: mm-dd-yyyy

Timezone: ET (US)

Newer Topic | Older Topic

Do Nothing Button

3 online now:	dwise1, LamarkNewAge, Percy (Admin)
Newest Member:	ChatGPT
Post Volume:	Total: 916,471 Year: 3,728/9,624 Month: 599/974 Week: 212/276 Day: 52/34 Hour: 0/2