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Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
Thugpreacha
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Posts: 13052
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 46 of 675 (409701)
07-10-2007 10:07 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by jar
07-10-2007 5:26 PM


Re: What God expects
Im trying to be consistent! :rolleyes:

I don't see why foreknowledge negates freewill. Just because God knows that something will happen does not mean that the decision was not freely made.

...say that I held a certain number of fingers behind my back and you had x-ray vision and could see them. Would that affect how many fingers that I chose to present?

add by edit: It seems that the only thing we don't have freewill about is how to stump God! I think thats fair.

Edited by Phat, :


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
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Posts: 31519
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 47 of 675 (409707)
07-10-2007 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Thugpreacha
07-10-2007 10:07 PM


Back to basics.
I see we need to go back over the basics yet again.

Does God create everything that is, seen and unseen?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-10-2007 10:07 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13052
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 48 of 675 (409742)
07-11-2007 3:25 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by jar
07-10-2007 10:23 PM


Re: Back to basics.
Jar writes:

Does God create everything that is, seen and unseen?

He does not create my thoughts, does He? Lets think about this for a moment.

I mean, I'm not sure about the Omnipotence versus Freewill thing!


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 Message 47 by jar, posted 07-10-2007 10:23 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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Parasomnium
Member (Idle past 987 days)
Posts: 2191
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 49 of 675 (409745)
07-11-2007 3:51 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Thugpreacha
07-10-2007 10:07 PM


Re: What God expects
This is a Great Debate thread between Jar and Phat only. Please do not respond to this thread or continue in this vein. ;)

I am sorry, I hadn't realized this. P.

Phat writes:

I don't see why foreknowledge negates freewill. Just because God knows that something will happen does not mean that the decision was not freely made.

But what if the decision has not been made yet, and still God knows already what decision is going to be made? Say that God already knows that you are going to present three fingers behind your back, but you yourself haven't decided yet. Why, you don't even know that you are going to he asked to present a number of fingers behind your back, but if God is omniscient he he must already know how many you are going to present when asked.

If God really knows this then there is not much you can do about it, is there? You may think it's your choice, but in reality it's not, you are merely acting out what has already been preordained. On the other hand, if it really is your choice, then God cannot be omniscient. God's omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive concepts.

Edited by AdminPhat, : clarification

Edited by Parasomnium, : sorry

Edited by Parasomnium, : No reason given.


"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.

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This message is a reply to:
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jar
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Posts: 31519
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 50 of 675 (409790)
07-11-2007 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Thugpreacha
07-11-2007 3:25 AM


Re: Back to basics.
He does not create my thoughts, does He? Lets think about this for a moment.

We are not dealing with that yet but rather if God creates you?

Edited by jar, : put in dropped if


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13052
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 51 of 675 (409819)
07-11-2007 1:15 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by jar
07-11-2007 10:04 AM


Re: Back to basics.
Jar writes:

We are not dealing with that yet but rather if God creates you?

Whether I evolved or not, I believe that God foreknew me. He surely created me indirectly, if not directly.

Thats a loaded term....create.

Of course I believe that at the very beginning of time as we know it, God had a definite hand at creating everything originally. In other words, matter never eternally existed...it was brought into existence Ex Nihilio.

Likewise, every soul that has ever lived was foreknown by God, IMB.

My point is whether or not by His foreknowledge, He could be said to have actually created my thoughts as I formed them. In response to that, I say no.

He may well know what I will be thinking five years from now at 2:30 am (assuming I am alive) for it is certainly within the definition of His abilities.

So... a short answer to your question is No. God has not directly created everything seen and unseen. Part of what is unseen is the future thoughts that I may have.

I believe that God foreknows everything I think, thunk, and shall think....but I don't believe that He initiated the creation of the logic (or illogic) of those thoughts.


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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31519
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 52 of 675 (409821)
07-11-2007 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Thugpreacha
07-11-2007 1:15 PM


Re: Back to basics.
Sorry but that is nothing but Theobabble. Lots of words with absolutely no content.

I believe that God foreknows everything I think, thunk, and shall think....but I don't believe that He initiated the creation of the logic (or illogic) of those thoughts.

That is simply an illogical, unreasonable, contradictory string of nonsense.

Do you believe "God foreknows everything I think, thunk, and shall think..."?

If so, then the second half of what you say, "...but I don't believe that He initiated the creation of the logic (or illogic) of those thoughts" contradicts it.

If God Creates something and is aware of all that that critter will do in the future, then that critter has no freewill.

It really is simple. If I create a machine that I know will always turn left, then even if that thing "Thinks it will decide which way to turn" it will always turn left.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 234 by Thugpreacha, posted 10-18-2011 8:52 AM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13052
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 53 of 675 (409897)
07-12-2007 3:55 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by jar
07-11-2007 1:26 PM


Re: Back to basics.
I don't see how just because God is all aware that He is all controlling.

Am I being dense?

Your Robot analogy is not a good one.

Lets say that God foreknows the future. The only way that freewill could be preserved, according to your logic, is if freewill by definition had to include actions that God never foresaw.

This presupposes more than one possible future.


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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31519
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 54 of 675 (409924)
07-12-2007 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by Thugpreacha
07-12-2007 3:55 AM


Re: Back to basics.
Do you believe "God foreknows everything I think, thunk, and shall think..."?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-12-2007 3:55 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13052
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 55 of 675 (410594)
07-16-2007 3:39 AM
Reply to: Message 54 by jar
07-12-2007 9:34 AM


Re: Back to basics.
I certainly think that He could if He so wanted.

For the purpose of this discussion, I will say that God has a suspension of foreknowing in order to allow our freewill decisions to manifest themselves fully in time.

I still don't see why He cannot foreknow and yet not directly or indirectly choose reality by merely foreknowing.

Some things have no choice. They simply are.


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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31519
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 56 of 675 (410612)
07-16-2007 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Thugpreacha
07-16-2007 3:39 AM


Re: Back to basics.
I still don't see why He cannot foreknow and yet not directly or indirectly choose reality by merely foreknowing.

But that simply shows you totally misunderstand the argument, so let me try once again.

Is God the Creator?

Edited by jar, : spallin spallin


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-16-2007 3:39 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
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 Message 661 by Thugpreacha, posted 12-05-2016 10:56 AM jar has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13052
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 57 of 675 (410618)
07-16-2007 11:27 AM
Reply to: Message 56 by jar
07-16-2007 10:45 AM


Re: Back to basics.
Jar writes:

Is God the Creator?

Yes. God did not directly create me...my parents did that. God foreknew what my eventual character would be, however. He can theorize all of the potential avenues that I will decide to take, so He sees my potential future as one among many possibilities. He chooses to allow me to actualize my destiny, however.

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


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 Message 59 by jar, posted 07-16-2007 11:46 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31519
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 58 of 675 (410622)
07-16-2007 11:32 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Thugpreacha
07-16-2007 11:27 AM


Re: Back to basics.
What the hell does "Humans were foreknown.." mean?

What the hell does "God did foreknow our unique individuality, however." mean?

What does "God is personal and not some stoic super-force that is unknowable." even have to do with the discussion?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-16-2007 11:27 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31519
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 59 of 675 (410623)
07-16-2007 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Thugpreacha
07-16-2007 11:27 AM


Re: Back to basics.
That makes no sense Phat.

He can theorize all of the potential avenues that I will decide to take, so He sees my potential future as one among many possibilities. He chooses to allow me to actualize my destiny, however.

Huh?

Does God foreknow which decisions you will make?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-16-2007 11:27 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
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Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13052
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 60 of 675 (410627)
07-16-2007 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by jar
07-16-2007 11:46 AM


Re: Back to basics.
Jar writes:

Does God foreknow which decisions you will make?

This is a toughie..but I will commit and say yes. God foreknows every eventuality


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Replies to this message:
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