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Author Topic:   Questions on "Random" Mutations
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 9 of 80 (409900)
07-12-2007 5:08 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by taylor_31
07-12-2007 12:07 AM


I'm guessing that germline mutations are much less frequent than somatic mutations, if only because the number of genes involved in germline mutations is much less. So what causes germline mutations?
Exactly the same things that cause somatic mutations. I'm not sure there is any reason to assume that Germline mutations are less frequent. You will probably have less new mutations in your Germline cells in total than in your somatic cells because there are less of them and they have less DNA, but I don't see why the frequency, in terms of the number of mutations per DNA stretch of a particular length, should be any different.
I would say that the impact of any particular mutational source may vary between the somatic and germline cells, but then this would be true of somatic cells is different tissues too.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by taylor_31, posted 07-12-2007 12:07 AM taylor_31 has replied

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 16 of 80 (410060)
07-13-2007 2:29 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by taylor_31
07-12-2007 11:08 PM


The answer is still the same one that Crash and I have both given you. The fact that there are less germ cells than somatic cells doesn't change the frequency of mutation events so there is no reason the odds should be any different. The odds of you having more somatic mutations than new germline mutations is high but only because you have so many more somatic cells. The odds of any particular cell being mutated need not be any different. There may be reasons why the odds could differ, such as mutagens which specifically target the germ cells, but the proportional number of somatic and germ cells is not a reason.
Given the number of novel mutations which are reported to be found in every newborn, and the reporeted mutation rates, I think the chances are pretty high that every gamete has some mutation, however small.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by taylor_31, posted 07-12-2007 11:08 PM taylor_31 has replied

Replies to this message:
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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 29 of 80 (410274)
07-14-2007 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by MartinV
07-14-2007 3:21 AM


Re: Dawkins about random mutation
Could you point me to some reference for the thousand year breeding experiment to create new species, if there isn't one then absolutely none of what you say seems to have the slightest relevance. Its the same sort of nonsensical argument as the one by people claiming that decades of fly based mutational assays haven't produced new species, they are demanding a particular result from a process which was never intended or claimed to produce such a result.
Why would artificial breeders, whether in farming or hobbyists, be trying to breed for post-mating reproductive isolation or even setting up situations which would encourage its development? Do you have any evidence that they actually have done so?
The other question is why we can't breed lizards or tigers.
Who says we can't? Other than you that is. Besides there are already hundreds of species of lizard, how many more do we really need?
TTFN,
WK

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 Message 28 by MartinV, posted 07-14-2007 3:21 AM MartinV has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 44 of 80 (410531)
07-15-2007 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by crashfrog
07-15-2007 12:10 PM


developmentology
I don't think this word means developmental biology, if it means anything at all.
the only link on google using that term in this context is one by you here on EvC.
Aren't there enough creationists making up their own terms without us getting in on the act?
TTFN,
WK

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 Message 43 by crashfrog, posted 07-15-2007 12:10 PM crashfrog has replied

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 Message 45 by crashfrog, posted 07-15-2007 5:14 PM Wounded King has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 61 of 80 (410901)
07-17-2007 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by crashfrog
07-15-2007 5:14 PM


If the phrase was actually "evolutionary developmental biology", then it would be "evo-dev-bio", now wouldn't it?
Evolutionary developmental biology - Wikipedia
The answer would appear to be no.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by crashfrog, posted 07-15-2007 5:14 PM crashfrog has replied

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Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 66 of 80 (411228)
07-19-2007 3:03 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by taylor_31
07-18-2007 9:45 PM


Frequency of mutation
Can't we use genomes to compare species and then postulate how evolution has progressed?
We can and we do, there are hundreds of studies looking at the comparative genetics of populations of one species up to large genetic comparisons across dozens of species or even more.
The process would probably be tedious, but I'm sure it'd be accurate.
As the methods used to collect and analyses large volumes of genetic data become simpler and more reliable the tediousness is reduced. The accuracy is to a large extent dependent on the method of analysis and the degree to which the assumptions which are used in such analyses reflect the reality.
Like you said, however, I would rather see evolution in the fossil record so I can actually trace a particular trait or characteristic as it evolves over the years; this would aid my imagination.
As the ability to recover DNA from more ancient tissues improves this has become more feasible for genetics but there is never going to be a comparable level of preservation to that seen in gross morhphology, or even cellular morphology in some cases.
The best thing to do is to look at both the genetic and morphological data (such as fossils) in parallel and the degree to which the trees of relationships between different organisms agree from these two independently derived sets of data seems to many a compelling point in favour of common descent.
While the derivation of these data is independent they are fundamentally connected as the morphology of an organism is largely dictated by its genome. The relationship between genetics and form is not a simple one however and directly connects to some of your questions about the nature of mutations.
I've learned that the factors that cause mutations are called mutagens, but I'm still slightly confused as to how often these mutagens happen. There must be a tremendous amount of mutagens and mutations to account for the diversity of life.
There are, mutagens are all around us constantly. Every time you see a new report in the media about how something increases your chances of developing cancer they are talking about that substance's potential as a mutagen. Sunlight is mutagenic, atmospheric background radiation is mutagenic, oxygen is mutagenic, red meat is mutagenic, salt is mutagenic it would be well nigh impossible to remove all the potential mutagens from one's environment and still have an environment in which life could exist.
2) These mutations account for the vast variety of characteristics that see in the natural world, right? From a whale's blubber to a bird's feathers, mutation must have been the cause of it. I still don't really understand how that can happen, exactly, but I feel that I'm getting closer.
That is correct and Crashfrog pointed you to the relevant discipline, evolutionary and developmental biology, which concerns the evolution of the way in which an organism develops. With modern genetic tools the degree to which the effect of mutations impacts the morphology of an organism can be studied to a degree previously unthinkable. The effects of changes in a single base pair of DNA can be studied in terms of changes in the morphology of the organism and changes in other genes governing its development.
Similarly the genes, and indeed whole genomes, for differing species can now be compared to allow the identification of the genetic differences between those species which can highlight possible genes or genetic elements responsible for the morphological differences between those species.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
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