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Author Topic:   Oh my God, I'm an Atheist !!
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4077 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 76 of 183 (410146)
07-13-2007 12:35 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by riVeRraT
07-13-2007 10:25 AM


Re: Created to Worship
riverrat writes:

I don't think it matters how you interpret it. I have met many atheist, and Muslims, who are more "Christian" than "christians."

I am not really disagreeing with here.

However, the biblical text does disagree with you and with clarity and force.

I don't want to get into a scripture slinging contest, as that rarely clarifies anything due the inconsistency of the text, but you know the passages I am talking about.

You cannot believe the above and that the Bible is God inspired, breathed and inerrant.

RiverRat writes:

What right to I or any other person on earth to say that anyone is going to hell?

I have lost count how many times I have been told this by really good Christians. They often back it up with several poignant and on topic scriptural quotes.

RiverRat writes:

Why don't people get this stuff, it's so simple.

Maybe because if one really believes in the Bible as God's text book they get confused because this "simple" message and others are ambiguous and contradicted.

ice writes:

If we are created to worship God (as Riverrat believes), and the God described in the Bible is the one true vision of God, then there would be a detectable tendency for people when approaching God to align their worshiping impulses towards the core beliefs described in the Bible such as a triune Godhead, the necessity for water baptism, the nature of the Holy Spirit, or second coming. There would also be a steady defection from counterfeit religions. There would be a detectable core agreement on a set of Godly principles.

Riverrat writes:

That's just not so.
Jesus said the children will go to heaven, and they haven't a clue of any of that stuff.

RiverRat, I said nothing about children going to heaven!

BTW neither does the bible or Jesus. I thought this was so simple!

Little babies, children and mentally incapacitated are born into sin! We are saddled with the Original Sin (well supported by biblical references) when we are born. This is gospel, you view is not. Oh the irony, Pastor Taz and myself have to preach the Gospel to the believers!

Concerning my prior point (which really is simple), let me be more succinct

  • If we are created to worship God
    and
  • If God really is as described in Bible

    Then there would be objective evidence indicating that. There is not. Christianity (not the do good and go to heaven stuff you are preaching) is only advanced by the active work of missionaries and evangelists. There is no innate leaning towards the God the Bible.

    If all Bibles disappeared in an instant and memories were wiped clean humans would invent a new religion with different trappings and nuances that would not resemble Christianity or the OT blasphemies.

    Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

    Edited by iceage, : No reason given.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 64 by riVeRraT, posted 07-13-2007 10:25 AM riVeRraT has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 97 by riVeRraT, posted 07-14-2007 11:12 AM iceage has responded

  • crashfrog
    Inactive Member


    Message 77 of 183 (410149)
    07-13-2007 12:53 PM
    Reply to: Message 74 by Hyroglyphx
    07-13-2007 12:14 PM


    Taking a look at Faith and Belief
    Because they talk it about it constantly!

    What atheists talk about is atheism; it's not surprising to find that people talk about what is interesting to them, I trust.

    Look at who opens which threads concerning theological discussion.

    Actually, let's do that. Looking at the first page of topics in Faith and Belief, the first topic is this thread about how atheists secretly believe in God, started by Riverrat, a Christian. The next one Grizz started, and it's not clear what his personal beliefs are, atheist/agnostic maybe.

    Next, Taz's question about flood models. Then Mick's thread about how morals aren't based on religion. Para's "God and the Fairy Tree" thread is the first example of an atheist talking about God. Jaderis started a thread about how your religion is far more likely to be determined by where you were born than on its own merits, something everybody knows but few admit. Mod has a thread about atheism. ICANT tries to defend a literal Genesis account. Simple informs us of a creation museum. JustinC wonders about degrees of faith. A second example of what you say is universal appears - AiG proves that God has no logical basis.

    Riverrat and Phat each try to make a case for belief in God having positive effects. Faithful Servant tries to use "the heart" to prove the existence of God. Tusko wonders about miracles. Jon Paine warns us about a religious charlatan. JustinC tackles an argument about God's relationship to morality from the classical world. Kader describes his own transition to agnosticism. Lostcause wonders if God is a scientist, but I don't know what he believes. Could be your third example.

    Mjfloresta wonders what evidence it would take to convince us that there was a God. Iceage wonders about different kinds of religious experience. Rob castigates atheists for wanting it both ways on the existence of evil. Anastasia wonders who is more moral. Pete OS wonders how literally we're supposed to take Genesis, anyway. Archer Opterix informs us about evangelical Christians accepting evolution. Woodsy wonders if there's really a choice involved when it comes to accepting that which is supported by evidence. Greatest I Am poses a question from the Bible. Yours truly admonishes believers to get over their obvious terror at the prospect of being convinced by the arguments for atheism.

    Phat explores a classic parable of the Bible. Mike the Wiz is frustrated with sectarian violence. Phat tells Christians that they should not be afraid to doubt. Jon points out a Biblical double standard. Straggler attempts to define atheism. Jar riffs on Glenn Morton's "Quadralemma". Larni wonders why Jesus performs miracles in the Bible. Jon questions the validity of some homespun theology. Wolf poses some problems for the Flood position. Sidelined ponders the meaning of the doctrine of the Trinity (not, I presume, onion, celery, and bell pepper.)

    That's it. I saw three examples where atheists started threads to talk about God, and many more where Christians opened threads to proselytize or defend their religion. The rest were pretty evenly split between atheists defending atheism, Christians questioning atheism, and Christians and atheists pondering some aspect of human religious experience.

    My conclusion? NJ, you're extremely oversensitive - to the point of clearly having delusions of persecution - to atheists rejecting the validity of the hypothesis that there's a God.

    Atheists really aren't all that interested in God, because that's just something made-up. And getting the details of someone's personal make-believe is kind of boring. It's as boring as hearing about someone else's dreams. What we're very much interested in, clearly, is religion, because religion is a very real force that has an influence on each and every one of our lives. Usually a negative influence.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 74 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-13-2007 12:14 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

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    AdminPD
    Inactive Administrator


    Message 78 of 183 (410151)
    07-13-2007 1:06 PM


    Topic Reminder
    A reminder that the topic concerns death bed conversions, not belief systems.

    Please stick to addressing the topic issues and address the position, not the person.

    Please direct any comments concerning this Admin msg to the Moderation Thread.

    Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour timeout.

    Thank you Purple


    Hyroglyphx
    Member
    Posts: 5655
    From: Austin, TX
    Joined: 05-03-2006


    Message 79 of 183 (410153)
    07-13-2007 1:11 PM
    Reply to: Message 44 by Taz
    07-12-2007 11:25 AM


    Re: Not at all sure of any reasoning here.
    Between phat's war on other people's sex lives, nem_jug's continual comparason of gay people and animal, and your "hate the sin, love the sinner" BS, I haven't seen anything that would convince me that believing in god would make me a better person.

    Maybe because you think that freedom entails anarchy-- hence, no rules, no social mores, etc.

    I'm really sorry, everytime I see one of you talk about god, I just can't get past all the BS that I see you guys do and say about other people who have never done you any harm.

    Your reasoning goes on thus: I haven't been raped. Since no one has hurt me, rape must be extrapolated and manipulated in to terms that grant its freedom from prohibition.

    Your greatest problem, as I see it, is that you believe freedom entails the unmitigated possibility to do every thing you want to do without reaping a single consequence from those actions. But, Taz, what is a contradiction?

    A contradiction is that where two mutually exclusive absolutes are posited at the same time. Where I see God's sovereignty and man's responsibility are not two mutually exclusive absolutes.

    We are not absolutely free, rather, we are free within confines-- interestingly, the very confine that dictates the very freedom to begin with. God has given me the privilege of the will. In the assignment of that will, He has that over-arching sovereignty, without violating that freewill in the process, but setting it up so that the entailments of those freedoms are inescapable.

    But since you are so fond of freedoms, why do you attempt to restrict my freedom? I don't have to ascribe to your philosophies any more than you have to ascribe to mine. You bash my beliefs, calling them intolerant, yet you've single-handedly committed the fatal flaw of contradicting yourself because you are intolerant of mine.

    Are you so obtuse that you can't see that about yourself? You give with one hand, and by that giving, you call yourself the great philanthropist who lives and let live-- never judging others. Yet, with the other hand you take away, and with all the scorn you can muster, you've judged those you claim are judging.


    "The problem of Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it is difficult and left untried" -G.K. Chesterton
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 44 by Taz, posted 07-12-2007 11:25 AM Taz has not yet responded

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    Dan Carroll
    Inactive Member


    Message 80 of 183 (410155)
    07-13-2007 1:19 PM
    Reply to: Message 79 by Hyroglyphx
    07-13-2007 1:11 PM


    Re: Not at all sure of any reasoning here.
    Your reasoning goes on thus: I haven't been raped. Since no one has hurt me, rape must be extrapolated and manipulated in to terms that grant its freedom from prohibition.

    Remember, kids! Being gay is the moral equivalent of rape!

    Oh, and Taz is silly for thinking that Nem's beliefs don't make him a better person.

    Edited by AdminPhat, : No reason given.


    "I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
    -Stephen Colbert
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 79 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-13-2007 1:11 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    Hyroglyphx
    Member
    Posts: 5655
    From: Austin, TX
    Joined: 05-03-2006


    Message 81 of 183 (410157)
    07-13-2007 1:38 PM
    Reply to: Message 75 by Percy
    07-13-2007 12:31 PM


    There's nothing to explain. I don't know where my spiritual beliefs came from. They've always been a part of me. There was no seeking or soul searching.

    Then can you define what your spirituality entails? I'm fascinated by Deists because I've yet to have one of them explain to me how or why they believe as they do. Is it so inexplicable that you could not rationalize it?

    I hope I said something along the lines of them not giving God much thought.

    And I'm refuting that notion given the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Your website provides ample proof that many atheists have a deeply vested interest in God.

    Intolerant I may be, but at least I don't call it God's way. I don't call upon a higher power to excuse my behavior.

    Oh, but you do excuse your behavior.

    All answers and all questions come from a paradigm. The very reason you raise the question is that there is a paradigmatic way in which you are seeking to answer it. When you take that question, it will inexorably borrow from a Judeo-Christian worldview in order to justify itself.

    Why?

    Because any person who seeks to answer the questions in a totally secular way has no moral framework from which to even raise the question, let alone, answer it. The best you can do is say that you don't see a moral framework. But that only begs the question:

    How do you know what a moral framework ought to look like, that you would actually scorn me for excusing my behavior and calling it the will of God? Are you not making assumptions that I will understand it as being a bad thing to do on my part?

    The way I see it, first Christians intrude their religious beliefs into secular matters, then when others object, they call them intolerant. Typical Christian behavior.

    The way I see it, Christians merely express their beliefs, just like everyone else does, but secular thought has made it so that it is not only taboo to speak about spiritual or moral matters in a public setting, but that they can manipulate the very Amendment used to protect their freedom and make into the thing that now condemns them and strips them of that freedom.

    And then if somebody does not see life in the exact same fashion as they do, they get branded as intolerant. But, then, this is the face of the New Tolerance movement... Its intolerant!


    "The problem of Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it is difficult and left untried" -G.K. Chesterton
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 75 by Percy, posted 07-13-2007 12:31 PM Percy has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 82 by berberry, posted 07-13-2007 2:18 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded
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    berberry
    Inactive Member


    Message 82 of 183 (410159)
    07-13-2007 2:18 PM
    Reply to: Message 81 by Hyroglyphx
    07-13-2007 1:38 PM


    Who the hell are you?
    nemesis_juggernaut blathers:

    quote:
    Because any person who seeks to answer the questions in a totally secular way has no moral framework from which to even raise the question, let alone, answer it. The best you can do is say that you don't see a moral framework. But that only begs the question:

    How do you know what a moral framework ought to look like, that you would actually scorn me for excusing my behavior and calling it the will of God? Are you not making assumptions that I will understand it as being a bad thing to do on my part?


    What in the hell are you on about? Why should anyone want to share your arbitrary and bigoted "moral framework"? Why do you feel this desperate need to impose this stupid, based-in-pre-history "moral framework" on people you don't know a goddamned thing about? Why can't you just accept that some folks' "moral framework" consists of nothing more than trying to do right by their fellow man? We don't need your silly and arbitrary "moral framework" to get by. What gives you the right to impose your morals on me, as you do when you deny me things like marriage and the sort of hate crimes protections that all xians enjoy?

    In other words, who the fuck are you to claim any kind of moral superiority at all over me?

    Edited by berberry, : subtitle added


    W.W.E.D.?
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 81 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-13-2007 1:38 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 84 by AdminPD, posted 07-13-2007 2:36 PM berberry has not yet responded

    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 18473
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 2.8


    Message 83 of 183 (410160)
    07-13-2007 2:31 PM
    Reply to: Message 81 by Hyroglyphx
    07-13-2007 1:38 PM


    nemesis_juggernaut writes:

    Then can you define what your spirituality entails? I'm fascinated by Deists because I've yet to have one of them explain to me how or why they believe as they do. Is it so inexplicable that you could not rationalize it?

    I can't explain it to myself, how could I explain it to you?

    And I'm refuting that notion given the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. Your website provides ample proof that many atheists have a deeply vested interest in God.

    Well, okay, if it makes sense to you that some people have a "deeply vested interest" in something they don't believe exists, I won't try to talk you out of it.

    And then if somebody does not see life in the exact same fashion as they do, they get branded as intolerant...

    I could care less whether you see life the same way I do. If it weren't for conservative Christian efforts to impose their religious beliefs on others in the realm of education, public policy and health, I probably would never have heard of fundamentalism, and this website wouldn't exist.

    No one is threatening the practice of your religion. If you lose in court on evolution, or if you lose a vote in congress on gay rights, or if you fail to close down an abortion clinic, that doesn't affect at all your right to worship as you believe. When you lose on any of these things, people don't come into your church, take all the Bibles and remove the cross.

    But when you win then people who have done you no harm fail to get a decent science education, or don't get birth control assistance or accurate sexual health information, or don't get certain jobs because they're gay, or have to get an illegal abortion.

    Clearly your side is the intolerant one, and to call people intolerant whose only crime is to resist your attempts to foist your standards on others is just what, unfortunately, we see all too often from conservative Christians.

    --Percy


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 81 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-13-2007 1:38 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

      
    AdminPD
    Inactive Administrator


    Message 84 of 183 (410161)
    07-13-2007 2:36 PM
    Reply to: Message 82 by berberry
    07-13-2007 2:18 PM


    STOP!
    Get back to the topic which deals with death bed conversions.

    Stop with the personal and rude language already.

    If this topic cannot be discussed in a civil manner, it will be closed permanently.

    Please direct any comments concerning this Admin msg to the Moderation Thread.

    Any response in this thread will receive a 24 hour timeout.

    Thank you Purple

    Edited by AdminPD, : Reopened - Closing statement removed.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 82 by berberry, posted 07-13-2007 2:18 PM berberry has not yet responded

    Hyroglyphx
    Member
    Posts: 5655
    From: Austin, TX
    Joined: 05-03-2006


    Message 85 of 183 (410231)
    07-13-2007 9:30 PM
    Reply to: Message 1 by riVeRraT
    07-11-2007 10:33 AM


    Getting back on track
    Will you at that moment look to God, and maybe ask Him something?
    You know, the one that doesn't exist?

    Its hard to tell because every one is different. When somebody asks me if I think that a recently departed person is in heaven or hell, I give them no good response.

    I do so because I have no way of knowing their eternal disposition. Do I have clues based on their life that give me a general indication? Sure. But we know from Scripture that the penitent man on the cross next to Jesus was saved right before his death, though he lived a life of criminality. We also know from Scripture that "that not every one who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the Kingdom."

    That tells me that perhaps lots of people we think are going to be saved end up damned, but the people we think are damned might be saved.

    Is Jeffrey Dahmer in heaven or hell? I don't know. And I find it some what of a frightening prospect to even speculate.

    When RobinRohan died I worried about his eternal state because he had made it clear in life that he rejected the notion of God. Did something happen to him right before he died that God honored? I don't know. As much as I'd like to know in order to satisfy my curiosity, perhaps its just not my place to know. Whatever happens to someone right before their death is between them and God.


    "The problem of Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it is difficult and left untried" -G.K. Chesterton
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1 by riVeRraT, posted 07-11-2007 10:33 AM riVeRraT has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 104 by riVeRraT, posted 07-15-2007 6:28 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

      
    nator
    Member (Idle past 332 days)
    Posts: 12961
    From: Ann Arbor
    Joined: 12-09-2001


    Message 86 of 183 (410242)
    07-13-2007 10:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 77 by crashfrog
    07-13-2007 12:53 PM


    Re: Taking a look at Faith and Belief
    quote:
    Sidelined ponders the meaning of the doctrine of the Trinity (not, I presume, onion, celery, and bell pepper.)

    LOL!

    :)


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 77 by crashfrog, posted 07-13-2007 12:53 PM crashfrog has not yet responded

      
    kuresu
    Member (Idle past 675 days)
    Posts: 2544
    From: boulder, colorado
    Joined: 03-24-2006


    Message 87 of 183 (410255)
    07-14-2007 12:22 AM
    Reply to: Message 74 by Hyroglyphx
    07-13-2007 12:14 PM


    Percy writes:

    Why is it that Christians think everyone else is as obsessed with God as they are?

    quote:
    Because they talk it about it constantly!

    Um, no. The only time I think about the concept/idea of god is when I take part in a theological discussion, which happens probably less than once a week. The atheist constantly talking about the idea of god is a rare breed. Much like most christians really think about the idea of god only when they go to church. It's rare to find people who are very obsessive about a single topic. You just think they're everywhere because they are the most vocal and as such, the most noticed.

    I think about music far more than I think about the EvC or the AvT debates. Especially during the summer (which is why I've made less than 25 posts here in like 2 months when during school I make well over a hundred per month.

    As ot you thing about the pile-on, I can't help it that this board has more atheists than theists and that we all (or many of us, at any rate) like to have our say.


    This message is a reply to:
     Message 74 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-13-2007 12:14 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

    Replies to this message:
     Message 93 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-14-2007 11:00 AM kuresu has responded
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    Legend
    Member (Idle past 3169 days)
    Posts: 1226
    From: Wales, UK
    Joined: 05-07-2004


    Message 88 of 183 (410288)
    07-14-2007 6:37 AM
    Reply to: Message 50 by riVeRraT
    07-12-2007 7:09 PM


    Re: so what?
    Legend writes:

    If I was dying an agonizing, painful death then, yes, I probably would ask for mercy/forgiveness/whatever. What would that prove, other than the fact that I'd be desparate ?

    riverrat writes:

    That brings up a whole other discussion, of just who needs God and when.
    With all our current technology we are embraced by, it becomes more difficult to believe in a God, since we don't need Him. But in the end, when all the technology in the world won't help, the tide is turned.

    But you still haven't answered the question. What is this topic trying to prove (or disprove) ?
    Like I said, a desparate enough person, on their deathbed, might well accept/acknowledge God.

    What does this mean ? Only that people will do or say anything under the right circumstances. So, where are you going with this ?


    "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the bug and some days you'll be the windscreen."
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 50 by riVeRraT, posted 07-12-2007 7:09 PM riVeRraT has responded

    Replies to this message:
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    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 18473
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 2.8


    Message 89 of 183 (410303)
    07-14-2007 8:18 AM


    Some Observations
    Before making some observations I'll reiterate my answer: When I take my last dying breath, God will be the last thing on my mind. There will be no deathbed conversion. There won't be a scintilla, not an iota, of any doubt. Nada. Zilch. Zed.

    Now some observations.

    Concluding that I must harbor some doubts about the existence of the Christian God because I'm involved in discussions like this one is just wrongheaded thinking. I no more have doubts about this than I do about the fallacies of creationism, and I discuss creationism all the time.

    My interest in discussing God is actually slight. Some of you might already be aware that I almost never participate in the faith forums. This interest, to the extent it exists, stems from a worldview that sees only a rational and comprehensible universe, and so countering mysticism, myth and muddled thinking is the primary motivation.

    But of course there are atheists and agnostics (keep in mind that I fall into neither camp) who spend a lot of time in discussions about faith-based issues concerning God and heaven and hell and the eternal soul. I imagine they do so for the same reasons people everywhere get into discussions: a desire to convince others of their point of view, or at least to make their point of view known.

    To conclude that atheists and agnostics engage in discussions like this because they actually harbor doubts about the non-existence of God would mean that whenever anyone anywhere on any subject engages in discussions, it's only because they harbor doubts about their own point of view. If this were actually true, then it must be true for believers, too, meaning that believers engage in debates about the existence of God because they have doubts about it. Clearly that makes no sense. The fact is, people debate because they think the other guy is wrong.

    If you believers out there are still convinced that atheists and agnostics harbor doubts, then let me ask you, when you breath your last dying breath and realize that there's only nothingness after death, will you then realize that it has been a fiction all along? Now let me ask you the real question: Are you a bit insulted by the very question?

    You see, the problem with the question, and especially with the way it was phrased in the OP, is that it a) assumes there's a God; and b) assumes that atheists and agnostics know in their hearts there's a God.

    Some atheists and agnostics have conceded that they might well experience a deathbed conversion, but that given the circumstances it would be meaningless. I must admit that this answer appears to concede the very point the question was intended to make: that atheists and agnostics do, underneath it all, believe there is a God. I don't understand why a true atheist/agnostic would feel his mind might turn in this direction at death, so I won't comment.

    But I will repeat again my own answer, that despite that I'm a theist, I am more sure in my heart than of anything else in existence that the God of the Christian Bible, as well as his hell and caring and devil and tenderness and jealousies and hate and Holy Spirit and rages and miracles and eternal soul, do not exist. No matter how delusional I might become while in my death throes, it is doubtful to the maximum degree possible that I would ever turn to the Christian God.

    --Percy


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    Legend
    Member (Idle past 3169 days)
    Posts: 1226
    From: Wales, UK
    Joined: 05-07-2004


    Message 90 of 183 (410314)
    07-14-2007 9:56 AM
    Reply to: Message 89 by Percy
    07-14-2007 8:18 AM


    Re: Some Observations
    Percy writes:

    Some atheists and agnostics have conceded that they might well experience a deathbed conversion, but that given the circumstances it would be meaningless. I must admit that this answer appears to concede the very point the question was intended to make: that atheists and agnostics do, underneath it all, believe there is a God. I don't understand why a true atheist/agnostic would feel his mind might turn in this direction at death, so I won't comment.

    Just to clarify on this issue, I -amongst others- have admitted that I might be the 'victim' of a deathbed conversion if I'm, in too much pain/fear/etc, i.e. if I'm not in a lucid state of mind.

    The point I'm making is that such a conversion would prove nothing at all other than the frailty of the human mind. It wouldn't offer any indication whatsoever as to the existence of God, neither as to the person's 'knowledge' of the existence of said God.

    It's the most natural reaction for people under stress/fear/pain to turn to thoughts that provide comfort and reassurance. People want to be reassured and comforted in such situations. It's why we tell people in accidents & battlefields that they're 'going to be ok' and 'it's just a scratch' even though their whole leg may be missing and they're fast oozing blood from their severed femoral artery. it's why the victims believe 'it's just a scratch' although they can clearly see that it isn't so.

    People will hang on to anything that gives them hope. For the vast majority of Christians fear of death is what sparks and kindles their faith in God. For atheists, like me, this fear will be at its highest when I'm on my deathbed, so I might crack then. The only difference between me and riverrat is that he cracked a long time ago.

    Percy writes:

    I am more sure in my heart than of anything else in existence that the God of the Christian Bible, as well as his hell and caring and devil and tenderness and jealousies and hate and Holy Spirit and rages and miracles and eternal soul, do not exist.


    That would make you an atheist, vis-a-vis Christian God.


    "In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the bug and some days you'll be the windscreen."
    This message is a reply to:
     Message 89 by Percy, posted 07-14-2007 8:18 AM Percy has not yet responded

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