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Author Topic:   General Discussion Of Moderation Procedures 11.0
ringo
Member
Posts: 17844
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 16 of 304 (410502)
07-15-2007 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Hyroglyphx
07-15-2007 12:30 PM


Re: STAY AWAY FROM ME!
nemesis_juggernaut writes:

I have reviewed my posts to see where your continued misconstrual of my words comes from. I can't see it.

The said part is that you lack the empathy to see how offensive your attitude is.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-15-2007 12:30 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-15-2007 1:18 PM ringo has responded

Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5892
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 17 of 304 (410507)
07-15-2007 1:18 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by ringo
07-15-2007 12:57 PM


Re: STAY AWAY FROM ME!
The said part is that you lack the empathy to see how offensive your attitude is.

Funny how you could have the audacity to say that about me, while saying nothing about his behavior, let alone the slew of highly offensive terms he's branded me with.

But that's okay. I take it in stride because he knows not what he says.


"The problem of Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it is difficult and left untried" -G.K. Chesterton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by ringo, posted 07-15-2007 12:57 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 07-15-2007 2:11 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Admin
Director
Posts: 12656
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 18 of 304 (410514)
07-15-2007 2:01 PM


Moderator Requests
I'd like to request that members keep discussion here focused on issues related to moderation, not on their own interpersonal issues. But I will add one note.

Rule 10 includes harassing behavior among those that are discouraged. While I don't believe that no always means no (as in "leave me alone"), I believe an interpretation that no must mean the opposite is an example of poor thinking. The assumption that someone else would behave by one's own mores, as is the assumption that someone else who is upset would behave by one's own standards of rationality while calm, seem brazenly perverse.

I realize I'm speaking in an indirect fashion and may not be understood, so perhaps it would be sufficient to just further request that members not throw gas on the fire.

Berberry, one final thought occurred to me later, so let me express it now. If you want to take insult at the expression of anti-gay attitudes that is your business, but I also believe you have a thin skin that is exacerbated by a history with certain people. If anti-gay attitudes upset you, you should avoid participating in threads with members who have anti-gay attitudes. All that getting upset does is weaken your ability to place such attitudes in the intolerant and bigoted light they so obviously deserve.

One of the great social errors of the 1990s occurred on a number of college campuses, and endures still if I'm not mistaken, where efforts were made to insure that no group was offended, turning campuses into bastions of political correctness, one of the worst examples of hypocrisy in my experience. EvC Forum will not be following this example.

Members should not conclude that EvC Forum is therefore a bastion for hate speech. Purposefully inflammatory and derogatory speech is a violation of rule 10. But saying something like, "Gays should not be allowed in the military," is a position that can be rationally and dispassionately discussed, in the same way that "Women should not be allowed on the battlefield," is a position that can be rationally and dispassionately discussed. Those who find upsetting the mere expression of such opinions, and much, much worse ones, might want to be more circumspect about which threads they participate in.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by berberry, posted 07-15-2007 7:49 PM Admin has responded

ringo
Member
Posts: 17844
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 19 of 304 (410516)
07-15-2007 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Hyroglyphx
07-15-2007 1:18 PM


Re: STAY AWAY FROM ME!
nemesis_juggernaut writes:

I take it in stride because he knows not what he says.

Irony.

I do take your offensive attitude(s) in stride, but that doesn't make them less offensive.

It's not just direct comparisons of gay people to animals, etc. that are offensive - it's the juxtaposition of ideas. If we were talking about African-Americans and I made an analogy about "dirty apes", do you see how some people might be offended? If I said I wasn't comparing African-Americans to dirty apes, would that magically erase the offense?

As I said, it's sad that some people can blythely walk around crunching other people's toes and ignoring their cries of pain.


Help scientific research in your spare time. No cost. No obligation.
Join the World Community Grid with Team EvC

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-15-2007 1:18 PM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-16-2007 10:18 AM ringo has not yet responded

Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16107
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 20 of 304 (410546)
07-15-2007 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Admin
07-15-2007 8:24 AM


Re: Cold Foreign Object
Well, CFO only called me "ignorant and unread". Hasn't everyone on the "E" team said the same thing to some creationist at some point? Indeed, only today I called IamJoseph "ignorant of biology". Mind you, he'd confused elephants' tusks with their trunks.

So why do you object to CFO's comments so much more than mine? Because he's wrong and I'm right? Let him be wrong. For myself, if any creationist wants to base his arguments on the claim that I am "ignorant and unread", I'm happy to let him have all the rope he wants. If you are worried about the moral effect on lurkers, then I say let 'em see what happens when a creationist fantasist collides with

Yours truly,

Dr A.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Admin, posted 07-15-2007 8:24 AM Admin has not yet responded

berberry
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 304 (410549)
07-15-2007 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by Admin
07-15-2007 2:01 PM


Re: Moderator Requests
quote:
Berberry, one final thought occurred to me later, so let me express it now. If you want to take insult at the expression of anti-gay attitudes that is your business, but I also believe you have a thin skin that is exacerbated by a history with certain people. If anti-gay attitudes upset you, you should avoid participating in threads with members who have anti-gay attitudes.

I take deep umbrage at that! I've been posting at this forum for years, and the only thing I have raised anywhere near this much hell about is that bigot's continuing, insulting comments against gay people, specifically drawing comparisons between gays and animals or rapists (and you still haven't explained why such comparisons don't violate Rule 10, since they are clearly an example of "goading"). I've been deeply involved in many threads about gay issues, and I can't recall ever once drawing your attention to anything! Where the hell do you get off saying that I can't handle anti-gay attitudes or that I am trying to impose political correctness?

Were you not being sincere when you posted this to me just yesterday?

This is not to agree with you or with AdminPD, but just to share with you my own feeling that enough people understand your point that it will not get lost or smothered, even if it doesn't happen to get adequately expressed in any particular individual thread.

Do you or do you not see the insult inherent in drawing comparisons between one's fellow posters (the gay members of this board, assuming I'm not the only one) and animals and/or rapists? If you do, then why are you now carrying on as though you think I can't tell the difference in such an insult and something like a mere statement that "Gays should not be allowed in the military"? If one holds that view, then one should be prepared to back it up, but not with thinly veiled insults!

Shall I be allowed to hurl insults at him in the form of comparisons between xians and, let's say, child predators? I've watched sting operations on Dateline, and it seems that quite a number of those who attempt to have sex with children cite their xian beliefs in an attempt to deny what they're obviously doing. Some of them have even been youth counselors at their churches, so this comparison would certainly not be without basis. I'd hate to be seen as condemning all xians just to get at that bigot and others just like him, but, like you, I'm not all that good at this. I'm more accustomed to wording my insults directly, but as they say, "when in rome..."

And a further question that you seem bound and determined not to answer: how did it come to be that he was made an admin at about the same time he made his comparison of gays to animals last year? And why was there no thread announcing that news, as there is at the induction of every other moderator? Given the timing, I would most certainly have been interested in knowing about it.


W.W.E.D.?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Admin, posted 07-15-2007 2:01 PM Admin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by crashfrog, posted 07-15-2007 7:58 PM berberry has responded
 Message 24 by Admin, posted 07-15-2007 8:58 PM berberry has not yet responded

crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 22 of 304 (410552)
07-15-2007 7:58 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by berberry
07-15-2007 7:49 PM


Re: Moderator Requests
Do you think he's going to stop just because you ask?

Do you think that if you disrupt the thread enough, the admin attention is going to fall on him, not you?

Nobody's saying that you don't get to have strong feelings; do you honestly think that you're expressing them in a way that's going to accomplish anything?

If you answered "yes" to any of the above questions - what the fuck is wrong with you?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by berberry, posted 07-15-2007 7:49 PM berberry has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by berberry, posted 07-15-2007 8:13 PM crashfrog has responded

berberry
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 304 (410554)
07-15-2007 8:13 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by crashfrog
07-15-2007 7:58 PM


Re: Moderator Requests
No, I wouldn't answer 'yes' to any of those questions. I would like to see Rule 10 enforced against xians who insult gays in a goading manner, but I have no illusion that such a thing will come to pass. Apparently, refraining from such insulting comparisons is too much to ask of fundie xians and admins here.

But so long as my position is being grossly mischaracterized I feel the need to point it out.

Thank you for sharing your feelings.

Edited by berberry, : correction to final sentence.


W.W.E.D.?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by crashfrog, posted 07-15-2007 7:58 PM crashfrog has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by crashfrog, posted 07-15-2007 11:14 PM berberry has not yet responded
 Message 26 by Taz, posted 07-16-2007 1:33 AM berberry has responded
 Message 27 by AdminModulous, posted 07-16-2007 1:35 AM berberry has not yet responded

Admin
Director
Posts: 12656
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 24 of 304 (410557)
07-15-2007 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by berberry
07-15-2007 7:49 PM


Re: Moderator Requests
Obviously I'm just making a bad situation worse. Sorry I couldn't help. Take care.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by berberry, posted 07-15-2007 7:49 PM berberry has not yet responded

crashfrog
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 304 (410578)
07-15-2007 11:14 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by berberry
07-15-2007 8:13 PM


Re: Moderator Requests
I would like to see Rule 10 enforced against xians who insult gays in a goading manner, but I have no illusion that such a thing will come to pass.

Duh. Bigotry is given a pass when its cloaked in religion. I wouldn't expect the community of admins to be any more immune to that than anybody else.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by berberry, posted 07-15-2007 8:13 PM berberry has not yet responded

Taz
Member (Idle past 1680 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 26 of 304 (410586)
07-16-2007 1:33 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by berberry
07-15-2007 8:13 PM


Re: Moderator Requests
Berberry, I've been thinking about the way nem jug has been handling this. I think he's been using a "debating" tactic on us and apparently it has worked on both of us. Let me explain with a real life situation example.

A while ago, my wife was trying to find a parking spot in a parking lot. It was full. She noticed that a car in front of her on the left was about to pull out, so she stopped and waited for that car to pull out and leave so she could park. There she was just stopped there for about 10 seconds when the car parked in the slot immediately to her right pulled out and ran right into her from the right. That was when she called me and I wasn't that far away so I proceeded to the scene to see what was going on.

When I arrived, I noticed something. While very calm with a slight "evil" smile on his face, the other driver was insisting that it was my wife's fault for stopping in the parking lot in the first place. Anyone with a common sense should know that he should have looked behind him before he pulled out. See, my wife doesn't have that much patience and she almost exploded due to frustration from the other driver's attitude.

He was very calm. He always had a smile on his face. When he talked, there was a sort of mocking tone in his words that you couldn't really pin point. All of this while he was saying something as rediculous as laying the blame on my wife for being in his way right before he started pulling out. Luckily, there were witnesses around so he couldn't really lie blatently when the police arrived. Then, of course, the officer after hearing both sides of the story declared that he was at fault.

My point is I suspect very much the guy was trying to use some sort of passive-aggressive tactic to mock and provoke my wife into doing something stupid, like losing her temper, and people do and say stupid things while being angry. He knew that it was completely his fault for running straight into a parked car, but he was hoping that my wife would be provoked into doing or saying something stupid to get him off the hook.

Remember that nem jug is a police officer of some sort. He's experienced with these sort of things. He knows how to press our buttons and make it appear that we are at fault. He has done a very good job at hiding his insults in a form of opinion.

All I can say is the only thing we can do right now is to wait for him to die of old age, or perhaps of some other less natural causes. Until then, I guess we'll have to continue to share our air with his bigotry.

Oh, and have I mentioned that nem jug's unashamed continuing usage of comparasons between gay people and animal and rapists is a perfect example of what I meant when I told riverrat that I want to have nothing to do with christianity (or god) until the christians clean themselves up a little bit? Until then, I guess if I'm desperate and irrational enough due to senilility in my death bed I might try to seek out god.

Edited by Tazmanian Devil, : No reason given.


Disclaimer:

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by berberry, posted 07-15-2007 8:13 PM berberry has responded

Replies to this message:
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AdminModulous
Administrator (Idle past 492 days)
Posts: 897
Joined: 03-02-2006


Message 27 of 304 (410587)
07-16-2007 1:35 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by berberry
07-15-2007 8:13 PM


Re: Moderator Requests
I would like to see Rule 10 enforced against xians who insult gays in a goading manner, but I have no illusion that such a thing will come to pass.

Well, in fairness rule 10 is about specific members, not groupings of people. If we enforced it against Christians, we'd have to likewise enforce it against those that insult Christians in a goading manner. Likewise with 'Creationists' and 'IDers', celebrities, prophets and possibly even deities.

That would probably kill a lot of discussion so we'd just prefer if you grow some thick skin and get used to the fact that some people in the world are unpleasant and realize that compromise means being able to roll your eyes when someone is being intolerant.

But so long as my position is being grossly mischaracterized I feel the need to point it out.

You probably should be complaining regarding the application/enforcement of rule 8. Unfortunately, this is an even more difficult one to untangle :)


New Members should start HERE to get an understanding of what makes great posts.

Comments on moderation procedures (or wish to respond to admin messages)? - Go to:
General discussion of moderation procedures
Thread Reopen Requests
Considerations of topic promotions from the "Proposed New Topics" forum

Other useful links:

Forum Guidelines, Thread Style Guides for EvC and Thread Assistance w/ Forum Formatting


This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by berberry, posted 07-15-2007 8:13 PM berberry has not yet responded

Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5892
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 28 of 304 (410608)
07-16-2007 10:18 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by ringo
07-15-2007 2:11 PM


What's good for the goose, isn't good for the gander
I do take your offensive attitude(s) in stride, but that doesn't make them less offensive.

Its not that I'm offensive. Its that you don't ascribe to my personal beliefs. If I was as half as nasty as some of the people in here, I'd have been sent to a leper colony by now.

It's not just direct comparisons of gay people to animals, etc. that are offensive

I don't make comparisons between homosexuals and animals. What I do is show why if you should morally support one, why don't you morally support the other by the same premise? If you're tolerant to one, but intolerant of the other, please explain how in the hell you can sit there and brand me as a bigot when you do the same thing?

If we were talking about African-Americans and I made an analogy about "dirty apes", do you see how some people might be offended? If I said I wasn't comparing African-Americans to dirty apes, would that magically erase the offense?

You just did. You offend me. :(

As a side note: What terminology do negro Canadians prefer? African-Canadians?

As I said, it's sad that some people can blythely walk around crunching other people's toes and ignoring their cries of pain.

As heartrending a testimony like that is, it doesn't undercut the fact that I've tried to civil discourses with many people who don't agree with me. I've managed to do that with many people. And while many, if not most, do not agree with my position, they seem to able to at least respect me enough to keep it civil.

Edited by nemesis_juggernaut, : Changed to meet the requirement of my boss


"The problem of Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it is difficult and left untried" -G.K. Chesterton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 07-15-2007 2:11 PM ringo has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Admin, posted 07-16-2007 12:46 PM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 33 by berberry, posted 07-16-2007 1:13 PM Hyroglyphx has responded
 Message 35 by AdminPaul, posted 07-16-2007 2:00 PM Hyroglyphx has not yet responded

Admin
Director
Posts: 12656
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 29 of 304 (410635)
07-16-2007 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Hyroglyphx
07-16-2007 10:18 AM


Re: Ringo compares African-Americans to dirty apes
That's a pretty nasty subtitle, not to mention misleading in the extreme. Subtitles are listed in most message lists. You might want to consider changing it.

Your response to Ringo, and I'm talking about the entire message now, not just the subtitle, raises a good point about the importance of maintaining civility, but it probably isn't a good idea to use EvC Forum as a testing ground of people's ability to maintain equanimity in the face of inflammatory or frustrating behavior. It would be better to see people trying to set examples as facilitator and communicator rather than instigator.


--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-16-2007 10:18 AM Hyroglyphx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-16-2007 1:10 PM Admin has responded

Hyroglyphx
Member
Posts: 5892
From: Austin, TX
Joined: 05-03-2006
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 30 of 304 (410638)
07-16-2007 1:00 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Taz
07-16-2007 1:33 AM


Re: Moderator Requests
Remember that nem jug is a police officer of some sort. He's experienced with these sort of things. He knows how to press our buttons and make it appear that we are at fault. He has done a very good job at hiding his insults in a form of opinion.

Taz, I'm being myself. I didn't have extra training on how to piss people off. If I really wanted to, I could get every one here spun up. But why would I want to? You might be surprised to hear that I'm actually very non-confrontational. I like rational, calm discourse.

All I can say is the only thing we can do right now is to wait for him to die of old age, or perhaps of some other less natural causes. Until then, I guess we'll have to continue to share our air with his bigotry.

Listen to yourself and then think of the word, hypocrite.

Oh, and have I mentioned that nem jug's unashamed continuing usage of comparasons between gay people and animal and rapists is a perfect example of what I meant when I told riverrat that I want to have nothing to do with christianity (or god) until the christians clean themselves up a little bit?

Do us all a favor and quote all the times where I said, "Homo's are dirty goat lickers," or "They like to rape little boys because they're gay." That's comparing homosexuals to this or that.

Me showing you how your relative morals really aren't relative is me showing you how your hypocrisy knows no end. See the difference?


"The problem of Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it is difficult and left untried" -G.K. Chesterton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Taz, posted 07-16-2007 1:33 AM Taz has not yet responded

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