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Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 64 of 675 (410639)
07-16-2007 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by jar
07-16-2007 12:36 PM


Re: Back to basics.
sure

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 Message 63 by jar, posted 07-16-2007 12:36 PM jar has replied

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 Message 65 by jar, posted 07-16-2007 2:11 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 66 of 675 (410733)
07-17-2007 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by jar
07-16-2007 2:11 PM


Re: Back to basics.
Yes. Sure...(I'm being cooperative so that you can make your point... But I have lots of questions!)

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 Message 65 by jar, posted 07-16-2007 2:11 PM jar has replied

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 Message 67 by jar, posted 07-17-2007 9:33 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 68 of 675 (410868)
07-17-2007 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by jar
07-17-2007 9:33 AM


Re: Back to basics.
I would call them a control freak. But this is God we are talking about. He can do whatever He wants.
I suppose that He has given us a brain so that we may judge Him if we so desire.

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 Message 67 by jar, posted 07-17-2007 9:33 AM jar has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 70 of 675 (410883)
07-17-2007 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by jar
07-17-2007 3:17 PM


Re: Back to basics.
Jar writes:
How would you classify someone who creates a toy which will only turn right and then adds the condition that the toy will be destroyed if it does not turn left?
Based on what you said above, I would assume that God wants that toy destroyed.

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 Message 69 by jar, posted 07-17-2007 3:17 PM jar has replied

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 Message 71 by jar, posted 07-17-2007 4:57 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 72 of 675 (411331)
07-20-2007 5:10 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by jar
07-17-2007 4:57 PM


Re: Back to basics.
You left out the condition that this toy has the ability to establish an interface and communication with its Creator in the present moment. The programming, although set in stone, is impacted by the instructions passed through the present medium of communication between the toy and its Creator.
Whether the Bible is literally true or is merely a collection of symbolic stories, the bottom line is this:
the message is not that we have a list of instructions, rules, and regulations that we must master or do to the best of our ability. Our destiny is not based only on our own effort.
The message is that relationship with God is the ideal that is to be striven for, and everything else will fall into place.
If the paradigm was merely toymaker/toys, it would be more of a preprogrammed instructional issue.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
If God created people and foreknew that they were destined for destruction, it would perhaps be an evil thing.
My point is that there are many opportunities for that destiny to be altered before the future moment is actualized.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Among other symbolic passages, Revelation clearly shows us that there is a choice.
We have a God who was, is, and who is to come(Revelation 1:8)
we also have a villain..an evil god, if you will, known as the Beast.
This particular character once was, now is not, and yest will come.(Rev 17:8)
Apparently some of the inhabitants of the earth don't have their names written in the book of life. They are not on the guest list. Evil? It would appear so....certainly....
My belief is that everyones name is listed in the book of life and people have to willfully do some major things to get their name taken off the guest list.
In other words, I don't see God as evil at all, despite whatever He foreknows. I see Him having to take people off the guest list based entirely on what they themselves knowingly did or failed to do that they could have done.
Now...getting back to our simple toy. If the toy has no way to change the intentions of the maker, the maker will be liable (and evil) for the toys eventual destiny.
IF, however, the toy has the ability to interact with the maker, its entirely up to the toy as to what the maker eventually foresees.

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 Message 71 by jar, posted 07-17-2007 4:57 PM jar has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 74 of 675 (411430)
07-20-2007 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by jar
07-20-2007 9:53 AM


Re: up to the toy as to what the maker eventually foresees????????????
Heres the thing:
God has foreknowledge.
BUT
God does not create our decisions

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 Message 73 by jar, posted 07-20-2007 9:53 AM jar has replied

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 Message 75 by jar, posted 07-20-2007 4:33 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 76 of 675 (411470)
07-20-2007 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by jar
07-20-2007 4:33 PM


A Creator with foreknowledge and a creation with freewill
Jar writes:
You have said that God is the Creator and that God has foreknowledge.
Is that correct?
Yes.
Edited by Phat, : title

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 Message 75 by jar, posted 07-20-2007 4:33 PM jar has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 78 of 675 (411520)
07-21-2007 5:58 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by jar
07-20-2007 7:34 PM


Re: A Creator with foreknowledge and a creation with freewill
Jar writes:
So God creates a toy that She knows will always turn right.
It doesn't matter whether the toy always decides on its own to turn right, the final result is that it always turns right, and God knows that even before the toy is created.
Is that right?
No. We are observing the interactions between this toy and God on a present level basis. We have no foreknowledge, so we, unlike God, do not see the future up until the time of final foreknowledge. In fact, the whole idea of foreknowledge of damnation (which is really what this symbolism is about) is an irrelevant topic when talking about a toy that has no freewill. All that can be asserted is that God has foreknowledge of the final direction that the toy ends up going.
It is entirely relevant as to the toys will. Thats why the idea of a toy is inappropriate when used as an allegory for humanity.
You seem to be limiting God by making darn sure that His (or Her) foreknowledge is something that we can pin as definite.
The future is being formed by each present action. The toy is not programmed to turn right at all. The toy is at best only foreknown to end up going right. At the present moment, all that God would know is that the toy will go either right or left. God has not directed the programming of the toy in any definite way. He only foreknows the end result.

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 Message 77 by jar, posted 07-20-2007 7:34 PM jar has replied

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 Message 79 by jar, posted 07-21-2007 9:57 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 80 of 675 (411866)
07-22-2007 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by jar
07-21-2007 9:57 AM


Re: A Creator with foreknowledge and a creation with freewill
well...we settled the argument in chat. For the record, I conceded the idea that God could have foreknowledge and that freewill could also exist.
Im not convinced of the logic yet, but it matters not.
On to other issues:
Does God care if we have relationship with Him and/or believe in Him?
I think scripture and dogma both clearly answer yes to the idea.

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 Message 79 by jar, posted 07-21-2007 9:57 AM jar has replied

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 Message 81 by jar, posted 07-22-2007 10:18 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 82 of 675 (411893)
07-23-2007 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by jar
07-22-2007 10:18 PM


Conversations with a Worm
Jar writes:
Do you worry about whether or not a worm believes in you?
Exactly what kind of a relationship do you think you could have with a worm?
The analogy lacks substance. God, IMB, knows far far more about every idiosyncrasy of the human condition than the average human (non-scientist) knows about a worm.
Even though the creator of all that is seen and unseen is virtually infinitely more complex than we are, the human is still capable of rational thought.
Additionally, suppose that I could become a worm and live among them. The reason would be to guide their species towards maximizing its potential. I would probably learn a lot about worms...and gather quite a following in their community.
Jar writes:
The (original) issue was whether or not GOD as creator had foreknowledge.
And even though I conceded the point in chat, I really can't see the logic of God having foreknowledge and knowing that some folks will end up damned means that He is evil.
Do you believe that there is a place or realm known as Hell?
Edited by Phat, : added jabberwocky!!

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 Message 81 by jar, posted 07-22-2007 10:18 PM jar has replied

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 Message 83 by jar, posted 07-23-2007 9:41 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 84 of 675 (411948)
07-23-2007 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by jar
07-23-2007 9:41 AM


Re: Conversations with a Worm
Jar writes:
Personally? No. I do not think there is a hell.
OK.
One of your oft quoted Biblical passages which is one of the cornerstone passages of your personal beliefs is Matthew 25:31-46.
NIV writes:
Matt 25:31-46
31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'
41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'
44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'
45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'
46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
One question would be: Where do the people go who suffer the ramifications of Matthew 25:46?
Jar writes:
And as I have tried to explain, the issue is not "God having foreknowledge and knowing that some folks will end up damned" but rather God creating people for the sole purpose of damning them.
The issue is god as a creator with foreknowledge creating someone that even before the act of creation knows will be damned.
Such a god is EVIL.
The problem with attempting to construct such analogies is that we humans are linear observers. We construct a past scenario: (God is the Creator)
We dwell and note our present reality.(Lets have a discussion)
We then hypothesize a future result: (Some folk end up Sheep and some folk end up Goats)
Are you suggesting that at this present moment, God has no idea who are Sheep and who are Goats?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

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 Message 83 by jar, posted 07-23-2007 9:41 AM jar has replied

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 Message 85 by jar, posted 07-23-2007 11:05 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 86 of 675 (412082)
07-23-2007 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by jar
07-23-2007 11:05 AM


Re: Conversations with a Worm
Jar writes:
The issue there is "what did god know before creating the person?"
Well in this context, I can agree that God may not have ultimate foreknowledge. It makes sense that God would not know our decisions that have not yet been decided.
I will agree that if God did have such knowledge, He could logically be declared evil.
Now on to another belief of yours that bothers me......
This idea that God does not care if we even believe in "her" or not.
That tears up another whole chapter of dogma and throws it to the wind.
What makes you think that God does not care?
You of course know that the whole idea of God caring is very important to me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 07-23-2007 11:05 AM jar has replied

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 Message 87 by jar, posted 07-23-2007 6:01 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 88 of 675 (412095)
07-23-2007 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by jar
07-23-2007 6:01 PM


Re: Does it bother you if the worm does not believe you exist?
Jar writes:
Would it bother you if a worm did not believe you existed?
Speaking as a human, no. IF, This gets us into a discussion on whether God believes that humans are special or not, however.
If I were the Creator of that worm and if it was proclaimed among the worms that I so loved them all that I sent my Son (who became a worm) to tell them all how to fulfill their destiny as worms and what it is that they should do to be the best worms that they could be, then we may argue that I as a creator may care about these worms and would never be too mighty or busy to commune with them and help them maximize their purpose.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by jar, posted 07-23-2007 6:01 PM jar has replied

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 Message 89 by jar, posted 07-23-2007 6:31 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 90 of 675 (412098)
07-23-2007 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by jar
07-23-2007 6:31 PM


Re: Does it bother you if the worm does not believe you exist?
The distance between man and God in infinitely greater.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 07-23-2007 6:31 PM jar has replied

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 Message 92 by jar, posted 07-23-2007 6:54 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 93 of 675 (412187)
07-24-2007 3:25 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
07-23-2007 6:54 PM


Re: Does it bother you if the worm does not believe you exist?
Jar writes:
Are you aware that worms exist?
Of course.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 07-23-2007 6:54 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
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