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Author Topic:   Oh my God, I'm an Atheist !!
Percy
Member
Posts: 22696
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 136 of 183 (410632)
07-16-2007 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by riVeRraT
07-16-2007 11:30 AM


Re: Some Observations
riVeRraT writes:
No, I believe atheists, and agnostics know God in their hearts, but can be deceived by the world into thinking He doesn't exist.
I believe Christians know in their hearts that their God does not exist, but have been deceived by long-standing cultural and religious traditions into thinking he does exist.
It is on your death bed, that you may experience a drop of everything that you were taught to believe in, and then the truth can come through.
As your life draws to a close you will likely realize that everything you were taught about God and Jesus is a lie, and then the truth will come through.
This topic was only made by me to give people a chance to think about it, and do discuss it, if they have thought about it.
I only responded in this topic to indicate that death is something that atheists and agnostics have already thought about, and that they already understand they face nothingness after death. Ironically, those who believe in an afterlife also face nothingness after death, they just don't acknowledge it.
I do not refuse to accept this idea, it is what I currently believe. This discussion offers an opportunity for those who think differently than me, to present their thoughts, and possibly show me something different.
What is incredibly perverse isn't your rejection of the idea of no God. It's your rejection of the statements of belief in no God by atheists and agnostics as what they truly believe. "I believe there is no God," say atheists. "No you don't," you respond. Crazy.
My whole existence on EVC, has been one of sharing what I believe, and know, while testing my own faith, and also clearing up all the dogmatic BS that us Christians experience. You see, I really don't want to be dogmatic, or ever be mistaken for a "fundie." I just want to be a normal person, that believes in Jesus.
It's nice to have goals - lots of luck! Given your chosen style of approach you're going to need it.
Oh, I do accept your answer, what I don't accept is your misconceptions and accusations of who and what I am. What am I really up to?
Plenty of people besides me are holding up the same mirror to you. The lack of insight, sensitivity and tolerance you demonstrate stands in stark contrast to your professed Christianity.
It is also unfair for others to put that pressure on me, and only shows just how much they could use a little biblical philosophy, and learn to forgive others.
Yes, I know, you seem well practiced in forgiving the behavior of those you yourself frustrate to the point of frothing at the mouth.
I am so sick a tired of the same programmed responses from everyone, placing Christians on some supposed higher moral ground than others.
You placed yourself on the higher moral ground with claims that atheists and agnostics have no basis for establishing moral behavior. If you don't like the pedestal you erected for yourself then stop making more-moral-than-thou claims.
Is it jealousy? Are people jealous that I had some kind of experience with God?
Oh my God, Riv, are you listening to yourself? Jealous of you??? Do you pay attention to anything people are telling you? Does it just go one in one ear and out the other? Are you so indoctrinated into Christianity that you discount every criticism, whether of your religion or yourself? We've told you we see you as racist, bigoted and intolerant, and you think we're jealous that you possess these qualities and we don't? Omigod, you're just unbelievable. Thank you for today's ironic moment.
All I know is what I felt from God, was so much love...
Oh, yes, and Berberry just feels the love, I'm sure.
This post was long, and drifted all over the place, but I just want to help you understand who and what I am about.
A few words of propaganda cannot obscure your history here. You hide behind Christianity as justification for the hurt and pain you cause those who have done you no harm.
If you want to be perceived as a loving and caring person then how about let's see some tangible expression of it here. Tell us first about your unconditional love of gay people as members of God's creation who are due all the same rights and privileges as anyone else, both as members of society and as members of any Christian church they care to join.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by riVeRraT, posted 07-16-2007 11:30 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by riVeRraT, posted 07-17-2007 12:01 AM Percy has replied

iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 6029 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 137 of 183 (410645)
07-16-2007 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by anastasia
07-16-2007 11:23 AM


Re: Created to Worship
Thanks for the response. I apologize for the OT comment on the other thread.
I guess I got a bit twitchy by both yourself and RiverRat proclaiming that:
...duh! anyone who knows anything about Christianity knows not to take Salvation thru Jesus all that literally and that everyone has a conscience and soul and if they do right they will be saved.. it is all so simple...why can't you get it...
When I know that opposite is true. The majority of Christian doctrine, and all very biblically supported, is that folks cannot be saved unless they hear and believe the gospel and accept Jesus. This is the motive behind the Great Commission.
If the headhunter dies without hearing the Gospel and accepting Jesus, or if he did hear it and didn't fall on his face and accept this white man's religion his soul has purchased beach front property on the lake of fire.
Back to the point of this thread. RiverRat believes we are created to Worship God - God being Jesus and God of the Bible - not God in the context of other traditions or cultures. So in the end he wonders if people will turn at the end-of-life to Jesus and God of the bible regardless of their prior religion. This is preposterous and and arrogant proclamation.
You then seem to try to salvage his position by stating that sure we are created to worship this God but he allows for you just to be a good person and doing the best you can within your context.
Ana writes:
I will say that if a soul is made to know, love and serve God, then it may be at any moment that the mind chooses to listen to the spirit. Death beds are one moment, but you can't get water from a rock, nor Jesus from Allah.
I don't even believe that this soft all-is-one philosophy is even Catholic doctrine and certainly not protestant doctrine. I am with you on this but the majority of Christian doctrine says this good Muslim goes to hell.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 129 by anastasia, posted 07-16-2007 11:23 AM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 6029 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 138 of 183 (410647)
07-16-2007 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by riVeRraT
07-16-2007 12:20 PM


Re: Created with Fear
Iceage writes:
I keep making this point concerning this topic. If what you say is true 1) that we are designed by God to worship him and 2) the God of the Bible is the correct, why don't we see a significant number of end-of-life conversions "crying out to Jesus", from the Muslims, Hindus, Jews, pagans?
RR writes:
Do we really know what happens as people are dying?
We do know that people don't typically trash their prior beliefs and religion and accept Jesus.
RR writes:
Or after they are dead?
The bible says no-one enters heaven except through Jesus.
So are you saying that after someone dies they get another chance?
Any thoughts on this would be pure wild speculation. What does your Bible say?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by riVeRraT, posted 07-16-2007 12:20 PM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 139 of 183 (410649)
07-16-2007 1:47 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by riVeRraT
07-16-2007 11:30 AM


Re: Some Observations
No, I believe atheists, and agnostics know God in their hearts, but can be deceived by the world into thinking He doesn't exist.
Wow... Well said. I agree. I don't think atheists know in their mind that God exists, but are troubled by what they know in their heart, so that there is this constant tension.
My whole existence on EVC, has been one of sharing what I believe, and know, while testing my own faith, and also clearing up all the dogmatic BS that us Christians experience. You see, I really don't want to be dogmatic, or ever be mistaken for a "fundie." I just want to be a normal person, that believes in Jesus.
It seems that unless you drop every principle that you know to be true or any charateristic which a reasonable and prudent person would recognize as being Christian, you will inevitably be called a fundie. No Christian wants to be referred to as legalistic or a fundie, whether they are or not. And its no fun to be grouped in with people on two extremes-- Fred Phelps or Rev. Sharpton. That's why its important that you not get grouped in with them, but follow what Jesus said.
Afterall, Christians aren't the qualifiers of what being a Christian means. Christ is the qualifier. A strange thing that so many people forget that. That's why they bring up irrelevant things like the Crusades, (as if you had anything to do with it, or condone it). I mean, what would Jesus have thought about it is the ONLY answer.
Nothing in the bible would indicate that believing in God, is going to make your physical life any better.
You're absolutely right about that. In fact, it says:
"Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name." -1st Peter 4:12-16
Does that make me some kind of perfect person?
Do I instantly become some kind of role model for all to follow?
Hell no!
It is also unfair for others to put that pressure on me, and only shows just how much they could use a little biblical philosophy, and learn to forgive others. Also to abandon faith in GOD, based on what people to, is the most piss poor excuse that ever was. But I did it too, so who am I to judge?
Even Paul himself noted how poor he was at trying to be like Jesus. He notes the struggles between flesh and spirit.
Well said.
All I know is what I felt from God, was so much love, and things that I can't even put into words, that I feel the desire to share it with others. In the spirit, and in the flesh (by helping others). No one has convinced me of anything to stop doing that, to date.
And there is nothing more special, more personal, more awe-inspiring than that.
Is a forum the best place to do it? I don't know. But when my email was not hidden, I received many emails thanking me for my faith. Maybe people were to scared to actually post. I've even had a few thank you posts in here as well.
I think a lot of Christians are afraid to post because of the backlash they've recieved in past instances. There is a fine line from being emboldened by Christ to preach the gospel to the lost and sounding like an arrogant, legalistic jackass.
Great post! Thank you for sharing.

"The problem of Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it is difficult and left untried" -G.K. Chesterton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by riVeRraT, posted 07-16-2007 11:30 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by kuresu, posted 07-16-2007 2:16 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 141 by Jazzns, posted 07-16-2007 2:56 PM Hyroglyphx has replied
 Message 150 by riVeRraT, posted 07-17-2007 12:23 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied
 Message 161 by nator, posted 07-17-2007 9:14 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2627 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 140 of 183 (410655)
07-16-2007 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Hyroglyphx
07-16-2007 1:47 PM


Re: Some Observations
Wow... Well said. I agree. I don't think atheists know in their mind that God exists, but are troubled by what they know in their heart, so that there is this constant tension.
Um, what tension? It troubles me not one iota that there is no god. My heart (the blood pumping, non-thinking dynamo* it is) and my brain are good friends. Except for when my brain thinks it's a good idea to eat food that gives me heart burn (although technically that would be my digestive system and brain disagreeing).
Little presumptuous for you to speak for all atheists, eh? You can speak for your past, but try not to speak for me.
*yes, I know the heart is not a dynamo. dynamo just sounds better than using pump again, or using machine. spice is good (and now my gut is kicking me . . .ow. . . ow. . .ow)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-16-2007 1:47 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-16-2007 4:47 PM kuresu has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 4026 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 141 of 183 (410663)
07-16-2007 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Hyroglyphx
07-16-2007 1:47 PM


Re: Some Observations
I generally don't have a problem with RR's sentiment of humbly sharing love and faith with others.
I think the problem though is that many percieve a lot of extra baggage along with that which seems contradictory to that same very sentiment.
From my perspective, you cannot sit there and talk to me about the loving compassion of Jesus and in a seperate instance explain how homosexuality and beastiality are moral equivalents. Well, I guess you CAN do it but not without seeming like a walking contradiction. As much as you and RR seem to TRY to seperate out the salvation message from your political views, you FAIL to do that almost at every single turn.
When I was growing up, I was taught that being a Christian meant you had a HUGE responsibility. You were in the lime light if you liked it or not. No matter how much you try to proclaim that you are still an imperfect human, to many, anything you do is a reflection on more than yourself. It is a reflection on the moral framework in which you chose to construct yourself.
Of couse, they meant it to apply to situations where you might be tempted to be "worldly" like casual drinking with non-christian friends. I took that message though to mean something very different. Some of the best conversations I have had with friends about Jesus were over a beer. One time was even at a strip club at a friend's bachelor party. I take that message to reflect more against being a hypocrite, being uppity, pretending that I know more than others, being hard nosed, being unwilling to learn. Basically all the things I see creationist and "conservative" posters do here all the time.
SO when it comes time for the non-religious folks on this board to look at the glossy back of their eyelids as they shut for the last time, try to think about what their perception of Christ is like. For all you know, their only exposure might have been YOUR attitudes on this very forum. Sure that might be their fault for not investigating it more, but in that last moment, rather than putting an outstretched hand towards the hope of God, they are far more likely to raise a fist in hopes that they would never be forced to spend an eternity with a God who produces such hatred and filth from so many of its followers.
We are a reflection of what is inside of us. "By their fruits" is an extrodinarily wise phrase that even non-christians can value.
By the way:
nj writes:
rr writes:
Nothing in the bible would indicate that believing in God, is going to make your physical life any better.
You're absolutely right about that.
Actually, the Bible claims that as a believer you should have super-powers.
mark 16:18 writes:
they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.
Edited by Jazzns, : No reason given.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-16-2007 1:47 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-16-2007 5:15 PM Jazzns has replied
 Message 151 by riVeRraT, posted 07-17-2007 12:34 AM Jazzns has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 142 of 183 (410675)
07-16-2007 4:47 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by kuresu
07-16-2007 2:16 PM


Re: Some Observations
Um, what tension? It troubles me not one iota that there is no god.
Just like it may not consciously bother someone with a repressed, traumatic experience. Perhaps you are unaware of it. I know I was.
Little presumptuous for you to speak for all atheists, eh? You can speak for your past, but try not to speak for me.
Presumptuous in the same way that psychologists unravel people's minds whether they ask them to or not. Besides, I'm not speaking definitively. You may be an exception. But there seems to be some continuity between former atheists and converts. I was just drawing a parallel.
If it does not include you, then let it roll off your back.

"The problem of Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it is difficult and left untried" -G.K. Chesterton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by kuresu, posted 07-16-2007 2:16 PM kuresu has not replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 143 of 183 (410679)
07-16-2007 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Jazzns
07-16-2007 2:56 PM


Re: Some Observations
From my perspective, you cannot sit there and talk to me about the loving compassion of Jesus and in a seperate instance explain how homosexuality and beastiality are moral equivalents.
Why not? Jesus loves everyone, including Jeffrey Dahmer.
Love, it appears, is equivalent to letting me do whatever the hell I want.
Secondly, if homosexuality is a moral equivalent to beastiality, then so is lying, fornication, etc. I don't have tiers of sin, and as far as I can tell, the Bible doesn't other. If its bad, its bad.
As much as you and RR seem to TRY to seperate out the salvation message from your political views, you FAIL to do that almost at every single turn.
I'll just have to get you to teach me, sage.
When I was growing up, I was taught that being a Christian meant you had a HUGE responsibility. You were in the lime light if you liked it or not. No matter how much you try to proclaim that you are still an imperfect human, to many, anything you do is a reflection on more than yourself. It is a reflection on the moral framework in which you chose to construct yourself.
It is a huge responsibility. And you are in the lime light so long as your beliefs are known. By fanning the flames of discord, you not only endanger your own reputation, but what is effectively worse, God's.
Of couse, they meant it to apply to situations where you might be tempted to be "worldly" like casual drinking with non-christian friends.
I was casually drinking with non-Christian friends this
Saturday.
Some of the best conversations I have had with friends about Jesus were over a beer.
Amen.
You do realize, though, its not the beer. Its that someone is listening to you with expectations or judgement.
One time was even at a strip club at a friend's bachelor party. I take that message to reflect more against being a hypocrite, being uppity, pretending that I know more than others, being hard nosed, being unwilling to learn. Basically all the things I see creationist and "conservative" posters do here all the time.
I have no doubt, whatsoever, that such things take place. But perhaps you unintentionally lump all Christians into that pot. I'm just as irritated by the hucksters on TBN as you. Actaully, scratch that. I'm more irritated by it. But just because someone holds to a conviction doesn't make them uppity. It means they hold to a conviction.
SO when it comes time for the non-religious folks on this board to look at the glossy back of their eyelids as they shut for the last time, try to think about what their perception of Christ is like. For all you know, their only exposure might have been YOUR attitudes on this very forum.
What exactly is my attitude? As far as I can tell, there seems to be nothing to distinguish it by any other professed Christian. Except, perhaps, Jar. (We won't go there). This is what I perceive:
The more timid, the more unsure they are, the more they are willing to compromise their core beliefs, the closer they are to your beliefs, the more they are in rightstanding with you.
We are a reflection of what is inside of us. "By their fruits" is an extrodinarily wise phrase that even non-christians can value.
Amen to that.
Actually, the Bible claims that as a believer you should have super-powers.
quote:
mark 16:18 writes:
they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.
Paul gathered a pile of brushwood and, as he put it on the fire, a viper, driven out by the heat, fastened itself on his hand. When the islanders saw the snake hanging from his hand, they said to each other, "This man must be a murderer; for though he escaped from the sea, Justice has not allowed him to live." But Paul shook the snake off into the fire and suffered no ill effects. The people expected him to swell up or suddenly fall dead, but after waiting a long time and seeing nothing unusual happen to him, they changed their minds and said he was a god." -Acts 28:3-26
Pretty sure Paul wasn't a superhero.

"The problem of Christianity is not that it has been tried and found wanting, but that it is difficult and left untried" -G.K. Chesterton

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Jazzns, posted 07-16-2007 2:56 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Dan Carroll, posted 07-16-2007 5:22 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied
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Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 183 (410680)
07-16-2007 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Hyroglyphx
07-16-2007 5:15 PM


Re: Some Observations
Secondly, if homosexuality is a moral equivalent to beastiality, then so is lying, fornication, etc. I don't have tiers of sin, and as far as I can tell, the Bible doesn't other. If its bad, its bad.
Would you rather somebody broke into your house, raped your wife, and cut your throat? Or would you rather they told you that your posts were intelligent, reasonable discourses on morality?
In other words, lied to you.

"I know some of you are going to say 'I did look it up, and that's not true.' That's 'cause you looked it up in a book. Next time, look it up in your gut."
-Stephen Colbert

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-16-2007 5:15 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Jazzns
Member (Idle past 4026 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 145 of 183 (410714)
07-16-2007 11:06 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Hyroglyphx
07-16-2007 5:15 PM


Re: Some Observations
Love, it appears, is equivalent to letting me do whatever the hell I want.
Which has nothing to do with what I said at all. The problem is that you are conflating some sort of "sin" equivalence with actual equivalence.
Sure, via some metric that you can invent that might exist in the eyes of God, lying to your boss about your "business" lunch and raping an animal might be the same. But you seem to not be capable of grasping, at least in the spirit of this debate, that those two actions are ACTUALLY different to many people.
In all your crusading efforts to patronize moral relativism, you have done nothing more than create a dangerous generalization that I think paints the message of Jesus in a darker and incorrect light.
Secondly, if homosexuality is a moral equivalent to beastiality, then so is lying, fornication, etc. I don't have tiers of sin, and as far as I can tell, the Bible doesn't other. If its bad, its bad.
Which isn't what I was talking about at all. I realize that at its deepest essence you have absolutely no idea why such things upsets people. It is very unfortunate.
I'll just have to get you to teach me, sage.
There is no need for patronizing. If you feel I have done so to you, I am sorry. All I am trying to do is talk to you about how other might perceive your, I presume, well meaning attempts to witness.
I was casually drinking with non-Christian friends this Saturday.
Great! Some Christians would call that wrong though. So to a non-believer looking at both scenarios, can you at least fathom that they might think something bogus was going on? You might call Christians who preach that drinking of any kind is a sin too strict, they would call you back-sliding. Who is right?
You do realize, though, its not the beer. Its that someone is listening to you with expectations or judgement.
I assume you mean "without expectations"?
Yea, I totally agree. My point though is that I consider that a better reflective surface to show my faith than talking about pseudo-religious/political issues as an expression of my faith.
But perhaps you unintentionally lump all Christians into that pot.
Unfortunately, it is pervasive among people who claim to "Christ-like".
But just because someone holds to a conviction doesn't make them uppity. It means they hold to a conviction.
Which is fine as long as that conviction is consistent. That I think is one of the biggest problems that non-believes have. The only taste that some of them have in their mouth is hypocrisy. That is why I don't agree with RR's thesis.
The more timid, the more unsure they are, the more they are willing to compromise their core beliefs, the closer they are to your beliefs, the more they are in rightstanding with you.
I don't know what you mean about timid. Humble maybe. But not timid. That is certainly not how I would describe myself at least. I am not sure you are grasping what I am trying to say. Maybe I am not communicating properly.

Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-16-2007 5:15 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 146 of 183 (410719)
07-17-2007 12:01 AM
Reply to: Message 136 by Percy
07-16-2007 12:26 PM


Re: Some Observations
What is incredibly perverse isn't your rejection of the idea of no God. It's your rejection of the statements of belief in no God by atheists and agnostics as what they truly believe. "I believe there is no God," say atheists. "No you don't," you respond. Crazy.
Why do you (and others) give me this line of crap, when I have repeatedly told everyone that I was agnostic for 30 years
Plenty of people besides me are holding up the same mirror to you. The lack of insight, sensitivity and tolerance you demonstrate stands in stark contrast to your professed Christianity.
Huh?
I WAS AGNOSTIC FOR 30 YEARS!
Yes, I know, you seem well practiced in forgiving the behavior of those you yourself frustrate to the point of frothing at the mouth.
Forgiving the behavior?
WTF is that supposed to mean?
You placed yourself on the higher moral ground with claims that atheists and agnostics have no basis for establishing moral behavior.
WTF?
When did I say that?
I have repeatedly said that many atheist, and whatever will likely be in heaven before supposedly christian people. Where did they get their morals from?
We've told you we see you as racist, bigoted and intolerant, and you think we're jealous that you possess these qualities and we don't? Omigod, you're just unbelievable. Thank you for today's ironic moment.
Deny it all you want.
But I wasn't talking about you.
Oh, and f-off. I am not a racist, or a bigot, or intolerant.
You inability to see this, is the years ironic moment.
Oh, yes, and Berberry just feels the love, I'm sure.
I respect beberry much more than you right now, actually I totally respect beberry, and at least he was able to put aside his own feelings about "people like me"(whatever that means) and see the truth I feel we get along fine, considering his dislike of Christians in general, and my not understanding homosexual attractions. I do not have a single thing against beberry, so I don't know where you get this BS from. Neither of us require your thoughts on it.
You hide behind Christianity as justification for the hurt and pain you cause those who have done you no harm.
Hurt and pain?
Where? When?
Give me a fucking break. Your post was like one long insulting, attack to me. And from the person who made the rules. Just awesome.
You have pushed me one step closer to leaving this forum. Outstanding.
Your own prejudices, intolerance, hatred, towards "CHRISTIANS" has hidden the truth from you.
Tell us first about your unconditional love of gay people as members of God's creation who are due all the same rights and privileges as anyone else, both as members of society and as members of any Christian church they care to join.
FUck off. Just fucking suspend me right now.
I support gay marraige, whether you like the way I do it or not.
I do not understand homosexual attraction. Just like I don't understand why people support PETA.
Homosexuality is a sin, according to the bible,
I feel it would be a sin for me,
It may not actually be a sin for those who are doing it, I have left it up to God to decide. Thanks to my religion, I have overridden what I feel is incorrect. The Holy Spirit has made me a better person.
Those are my beliefs, but have chosen not to extend those beliefs into keeping others from doing it. There is no hate involved. It is my personal view that I am entitled too.
I am a sinner just like the next guy, and do some things that I hate myself. Who am I to tell people what they can, and cannot do?
God does a mighty fine job of letting people know when they are doing wrong. That is the job of the Holy Spirit.
Even though this all has been sorted out, in your very own forum, people still don't get it.
And my history here? WTF is that supposed to mean?
I have always been mistaken for a fundie. Your the one with the problem, not me.
At first I did not understand, but some traveling around, has shown me just how bad the rest of the country is out there. Here in the NYC area, I feel we don't really have that "fundie" problem. We are a little more liberal. The worst we have is the Pentecostals who probably hate the way I worship, more than fundies hate gays.
I really didn't even fully understand what a fundie was, until I came here, and people started calling me, just because I believe in Christ, not because of my values. All of you are prejudice, it is plain and simple.
And not understanding homosexual attraction, is not part of it, because I have always felt that way, even though I was agnostic for 30 years. I guess I am just a gay basher at heart, right?
Well at least I am honest, have a nice day. Oh and thanks for your incredibly insulting OFF-TOPIC post.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Percy, posted 07-16-2007 12:26 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by Percy, posted 07-17-2007 8:01 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 147 of 183 (410720)
07-17-2007 12:09 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by iceage
07-16-2007 1:24 PM


Re: Created to Worship
When I know that opposite is true. The majority of Christian doctrine, and all very biblically supported, is that folks cannot be saved unless they hear and believe the gospel and accept Jesus. This is the motive behind the Great Commission.
So says the bible. But what did Jesus say?
I bet Jesus was probably upset when they assembled the bible, and made it a national religion.
If the headhunter dies without hearing the Gospel and accepting Jesus,
I know there are many verses that point to Jesus being the only way, but where does it say int he bible that all people will have a chance to know Jesus before the end?
Doesn't it say to go and preach the gospel, and Jesus will come back after the gospel is preached to the ends of the earth? Surely some people would have dies before then, not having a fair chance of knowing Jesus.
I am sorry, but your using biblical doctrine, against what we are saying, is as bad as using biblical doctrine to support slavery.
So in the end he wonders if people will turn at the end-of-life to Jesus and God of the bible regardless of their prior religion. This is preposterous and and arrogant proclamation.
After reading that statement, I guess I should have said, people who have had a fair chance of knowing Jesus. Or maybe they even know, but just don't accept it.
I am with you on this but the majority of Christian doctrine says this good Muslim goes to hell.
That is why wars start. Can't we just leave it up to God, like the bible says?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by iceage, posted 07-16-2007 1:24 PM iceage has not replied

anastasia
Member (Idle past 6067 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 148 of 183 (410722)
07-17-2007 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by iceage
07-16-2007 1:24 PM


Re: Created to Worship
iceage writes:
...duh! anyone who knows anything about Christianity knows not to take Salvation thru Jesus all that literally and that everyone has a conscience and soul and if they do right they will be saved.. it is all so simple...why can't you get it...
I am sorry. My faith tells me that God will allow for everyone to reach eternal life if they choose. He would not be a just God if He did not, but an unfair petty God. I am not gangin' up with RR, but I thought he was not articulating this idea well, and sort of subconsciously regurgitating it.
When I know that opposite is true. The majority of Christian doctrine, and all very biblically supported, is that folks cannot be saved unless they hear and believe the gospel and accept Jesus. This is the motive behind the Great Commission.
Yes, I know some Christians think that way, or even most. The Catholic church does not teach this.
Back to the point of this thread. RiverRat believes we are created to Worship God - God being Jesus and God of the Bible - not God in the context of other traditions or cultures. So in the end he wonders if people will turn at the end-of-life to Jesus and God of the bible regardless of their prior religion. This is preposterous and and arrogant proclamation.
Not preposterous and arrogant, but it savours of the idea that all are saved, which is not Biblical IMO, and in reality, some will turn to God, and some will turn away, at the moment of death. I don't see why bother with all the free will nonsense if we believe it will be snatched away in the end to make good.
You then seem to try to salvage his position by stating that sure we are created to worship this God but he allows for you just to be a good person and doing the best you can within your context
I am not concerned with 'his position'. I am salvaging the doctrine and presenting it as it was intended.
I don't even believe that this soft all-is-one philosophy is even Catholic doctrine and certainly not protestant doctrine. I am with you on this but the majority of Christian doctrine says this good Muslim goes to hell.
I have done the research. I find my view consistant with Catholic doctrine and the writings of the popes. It is still a subject that gets debated, and I know that my personal take doesn't negate the debate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by iceage, posted 07-16-2007 1:24 PM iceage has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 149 of 183 (410724)
07-17-2007 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by iceage
07-16-2007 1:32 PM


Re: Created with Fear
So are you saying that after someone dies they get another chance?
Any thoughts on this would be pure wild speculation. What does your Bible say?
It says just what I wrote.
Take a read at this, the most quoted bible verse in fundie land. John 3:16. They say it is the most important verse, but all the people who use it, take it out of context. The should resort to using the complete text on the subject.
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[g] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."
Concentrate on John 3:21.
It's about doing the "right thing." A coin phrase said by manyh people here. Just where does this "right thing" come from?
Just is it to believe in Jesus? That is what jar talks about all the time. I agree with him on that. I think?
Edited by riVeRraT, : fixed bracket

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by iceage, posted 07-16-2007 1:32 PM iceage has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 163 by nator, posted 07-17-2007 9:24 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 530 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 150 of 183 (410726)
07-17-2007 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by Hyroglyphx
07-16-2007 1:47 PM


Re: Some Observations
Thanks nem, you have restored my night.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-16-2007 1:47 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

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