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Author | Topic: Oh my God, I'm an Atheist !! | |||||||||||||||||||||||
riVeRraT Member (Idle past 667 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
When I know that opposite is true. The majority of Christian doctrine, and all very biblically supported, is that folks cannot be saved unless they hear and believe the gospel and accept Jesus. This is the motive behind the Great Commission. So says the bible. But what did Jesus say? I bet Jesus was probably upset when they assembled the bible, and made it a national religion.
If the headhunter dies without hearing the Gospel and accepting Jesus, I know there are many verses that point to Jesus being the only way, but where does it say int he bible that all people will have a chance to know Jesus before the end? Doesn't it say to go and preach the gospel, and Jesus will come back after the gospel is preached to the ends of the earth? Surely some people would have dies before then, not having a fair chance of knowing Jesus. I am sorry, but your using biblical doctrine, against what we are saying, is as bad as using biblical doctrine to support slavery.
So in the end he wonders if people will turn at the end-of-life to Jesus and God of the bible regardless of their prior religion. This is preposterous and and arrogant proclamation. After reading that statement, I guess I should have said, people who have had a fair chance of knowing Jesus. Or maybe they even know, but just don't accept it.
I am with you on this but the majority of Christian doctrine says this good Muslim goes to hell. That is why wars start. Can't we just leave it up to God, like the bible says?
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 667 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
So are you saying that after someone dies they get another chance? Any thoughts on this would be pure wild speculation. What does your Bible say? It says just what I wrote. Take a read at this, the most quoted bible verse in fundie land. John 3:16. They say it is the most important verse, but all the people who use it, take it out of context. The should resort to using the complete text on the subject. 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[g] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God." Concentrate on John 3:21. It's about doing the "right thing." A coin phrase said by manyh people here. Just where does this "right thing" come from? Just is it to believe in Jesus? That is what jar talks about all the time. I agree with him on that. I think? Edited by riVeRraT, : fixed bracket
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 667 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Thanks nem, you have restored my night.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 667 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
From my perspective, you cannot sit there and talk to me about the loving compassion of Jesus and in a seperate instance explain how homosexuality and beastiality are moral equivalents. Well, I guess you CAN do it but not without seeming like a walking contradiction. As much as you and RR seem to TRY to seperate out the salvation message from your political views, you FAIL to do that almost at every single turn. ahem, I have left it up to God, thank you very much. I think I will have to make that my sig.
SO when it comes time for the non-religious folks on this board to look at the glossy back of their eyelids as they shut for the last time, try to think about what their perception of Christ is like. For all you know, their only exposure might have been YOUR attitudes on this very forum I take full responsibility. My only prayer is that I don't screw up divine encounters. What I do not take the blame for, is what other have done to those people, that make them see me in the wrong light. It is up to them to get past that. Too many people have "oaths" (stuck in their ways)on this board (and in life) and that is the basis for prejudice, and not being free. When true forgiveness takes place, then you are no longer bound by these oaths you have made about life. the bars can be lifted one by one, as God reveals tham to us.
Actually, the Bible claims that as a believer you should have super-powers. If your faith is strong enough, you can move a mountain. Guess I am just a pimple of faith then. But even super-powers does not mean a good life.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 667 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
You have to grab a shovel and dig in and do it yourself. Do what myself? I've done everything I am supposed to do.Now it is up to God to set people straight, including myself. Stop acting like a fundie and people will stop calling you a fundie. Dude, I was a fundie before I even made my first post here. Give me a break. That's the problem, too many people think that just because they accept gays, and hate christians, that they are beyond prejudice, and their own form of bigotry. I call hypocrisy to the nth degree. So tell me, now that I am for gay marriage (in the state) yet I still do not understand how a person can be attracted to another person of the same sex, wtf am I doing wrong? You want me to lie, and say the bible condones homosexuality?You want me to lie, and say, I feel it is right for myself to be gay? That if I turned gay tomorrow, that I would all of sudden not think it is a sin FOR MYSELF? Yea, all that could change on my death bed, if God shows up, and tells me I was completely wrong, and explains to me why. Or if rrhain shows up and gives me good head.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 667 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
I just wanted to say, that I agree with your view.
Anyone who claims to be open minded, a necessary scientific/logical quality, should agree also.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 667 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Again I will explain everything for you, since you still seem to not get it, my position. You have me so one sided, and I am just not that way.
And that's what you learned in your 30 years as an agnostic, that all agnostics are alike and actually know in their hearts that there is a God, but are in denial? No, but it is a possibility. Being deceived, and being in denial aretwo different things, and I have expressed both. They are not absolutes as far as explanations go. Most of what I say, I do not say as an absolute. I don't think the mirror you're looking in is reflecting the agnostic you were. I think it's reflecting the person you are. I am 41, and I feel I have a wonderful learning curve. I am no way stuck in my ways, and if life has taught me anything, it is that I can always learn. Some of what I say, I would have not believe just a few years ago.
That you're so wonderful for forgiving gays and Berberry. After all, everyone knows that Christians are the arbiter of all that is right and wrong, of what is sin, and that if a Christian decides you are a sinner then you are a sinner, and you should thank your lucky stars if the Christian forgives you. You see, this is the epitome of how you are. At no point in any of my conversations did I give you a reason to come up with this statement.Since I have been here on this forum, and some almost 5,000 posts, did I ever give you a reason to say what you just said. If anything I have been preaching the opposite, over and over and over. I think you owe me an apology. I do not forgive beberry. I do not need to, he has not done anything wrong to me. I am a sinner just like him. If anything, I need forgiveness from him, if my way of thinking offends him. I have never called anyone a sinner here, without calling myself a sinner. Everyone sins, but everyone can be forgiven. IF I am to be forgiven, then I must forgive. If someone sins against me. Beberry has not sinned against me. I have never condemned anyone, or convicted anyone. I have never in my life said someone was going to hell. So where you are getting this stuff, must be from you, and you are the one with the problem. Maybe the mirror needs to be turned around? I don't know, you tell me.
There it is in black and white, your paranoia about gays to the point where you think they're out to get you and have actually harmed you, and your placing yourself on the moral high ground as the vessel of forgiveness for those you perceive as having trespassed against you. You have no idea what I am talking about. You have only assumed that gay people have done something to me, by just being gay. That is not the case. It goes into things much more personal than that, and I have never held a grudge against anyone, JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE GAY, or anything for that matter. Gay people do not offend me. Gay sex to me is disgusting, but that is my problem. I have covered all this before in other threads. I married an hispanic woman, my friends are gay, black, white, and hispanic. If anything I get along with white people the least. I can't take their bigotry, and the way they treat people of different backrounds. I often speak out against it, and I was hated for it.shit, in most of the places I worked, I was the minority, and had a first hand experience at how they feel. In Harlem NYC I found that most black people won't even hold the door for you, just because you are white. I've gone over this ground before, but I don't recall the reply, if there was one. Aren't you in favor of efforts to teach creation science or ID, or reduce treatments of evolution? No.
Aren't you for laws against abortion? I am not sure. I certainly do not like abortion, and feel the choice is when you decide to have sex, not after the fact. I consider myself pro-choice.
Aren't you against gay rights, I'm not sure which ones specifically, but possibilities are being against gays in the military or as teachers or as parents, you get the idea? Shit no. Gay people are outstanding people.
Have public school children or teachers done you any harm? Maybe when I was a child, very few other children tried to harm me.
Have women wishing to end their pregnancy done you any harm? It's not about me, but the life they choose to create, and take a chance on creating.
Have gays done you any harm? I know your answer to this one is yes, but that opinion only speaks about you, not gays. Yes, but not because they were gay. Because they were shitty people, who happen to be gay.
I have nothing against Christians. I don't treat Christians, an enormously diverse group, in the same way you treat gays as a homogeneous group and atheists as a homogeneous group, stereotyping them as if they were all clones. I do nothing of the sort, and the fact that I don't means you need to look in the mirror.
Why don't you ask yourself why you and NJ are so much in agreement if you're not really a fundamentalist? Because I am not one.
But allow me to try to salvage some topic at the end. These are the beliefs you gave in your opening post that I think most people think are incorrect: * "...we were all created to worship God..." * "...So we all know God in our hearts/spirits." * "An atheist will go around his whole life denouncing God or claim God does not exist..." * "...[when] you are on your death bed, and you are taking your last breath, I think that will change at that moment for you." We understand that you really and truly believe these things, but trust us on this, they are all, in the general sense, wrong. --Percy First you say, you think they are wrong, then you say, they are wrong. Which one is it? If you say you think they are wrong, then that is the best thing you could say, as I have said what my opinion was. The OP was only my opinion, and my belief, under certain circumstances. If I was so set in my ways, I would not have bothered to ask the question.... ABEIf there is any truth in what I say, I do not expect any immediate revelations to happen. But the truth will work it's way in, if it is truth. People can choose for themselves, and make their own destinations. Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given. Edited by riVeRraT, : No reason given.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 667 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
I was fixing that as you were posting your reply.
I feel we are all sinners. I do not single out anyones sin, or point it out to them, they know if they are sinning or not.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 667 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
The first quote is only my belief, and a possibility. As I stated just a few posts ago, it is not an absolute.
The second quote is fine, because I do accept Percy's answer. That is what she believes. It was what I believed too. Some bone head making a few posts in an internet forum would not have changed my mind either.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 667 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Hey, look, Riv, I just don't have the skill to unravel these contradictions. Then I am the WINNER!!!
riVeRraT in Message 51 writes: And plenty of gay people have done me harm... Is consistent with this:
riVeRraT in Message 157 writes: I have never held a grudge against anyone, JUST BECAUSE THEY WERE GAY, or anything for that matter. It is not inconsistent, the second quote is a further explanation of what was said, since you automatically assume, that I hate gay people, just because they are gay. If I was less of a person, I would have. As you can see I despise that kind of behavior. I never hated gay people just because they were gay. Christian or not. Look I am not perfect, we all do harm to people sometimes, and we don't even realize we are doing it. That is something that I suffered from, and still do. The Holy Spirit has pointed out much to me, and made me more aware of how my actions affect others.Sometimes it can be just taking the time out to better explain yourself. I know you also said there were "details", but that doesn't justify stigmatizing an entire group that has not done you any harm Later denials made under duress just don't ring as true as freely made unsolicited statements. That is why I have not stigmatized anyone. Look, for me same sex marriage is just not marriage. That is because I believe a man should be with a woman, period. It has nothing to do with me hating gays. To me, you can't make black, white. But my priorities in life, tell me to ignore that thought. For if I impose those beliefs into our legal system, I would be a hypocrite. I treasure freedom above all else. I am attacking my very own freedom when I start telling people what they can, and cannot do, I am expect the same to happen to me. Where I live, there is no legal place to ride ATV's. All the liberals around here, have had it all banned. I pay taxes on the state land just like they do, why are they telling me, what I can, and cannot do. That is equivalent to me telling gays what they can, and cannot do. If I was unfair, and bigoted, I would not have realized this simple fact. It wouldn't matter to me, and I would probably be a bigot. I see many people in here, angry at the church (whatever church) because they were hurt by it in the past, and now take it out on all of the world religions. They don't see this as being prejudice. Like they have some righteous anger or something. It is like ikabod said, it doesn't matter what side you are on, we all seem to act the same.Hopefully I am not acting that way, and I truly accept other peoples beliefs. People taint what I say, and put me into a category. I don't want to be in a category, from either side. I just want to be man. Like prince. The fact that people taint what I say, just because I believe in Christ, shows the battle that goes on. It only enforces my beliefs, not diminish them. But I won't let it affect who I am, and how I am with others. Eye for an eye does not rule my life.
Somewhere in the Bible it says something like, "Judge not, that ye be not judged." It's good advice. Yes that is why I was correcting what I wrote, as Parasonium was commenting on it. I reread what I wrote, and realized I wrote, what I did not mean. I think when I say we are all sinners, that I am being fair. If someone here is not a sinner, please stand up.
t's good advice. If you stop judging atheists to be deniers of God who they unconsciously know in their heart exists, It is a possibility, not an absolute, have you got that yet?
and judging gays to have done you harm, There is no judging, facts are facts. It doesn't matter that they were gay, as I pointed out 100 times already.
and just stop judging period, you may find fewer judgments flowing back toward you. I have judged no-one, only shared what I went through. I do not judge people, unless I hold the same judgment up to myself. Fair is fair. I have been wrongly accused, and mis-understood, and the victim of bigotry, and hatred against fundies, and Christians. So very ironic.
The reality is that all large groups are incredibly diverse. I'll bet you've been harmed by birdwatchers. The nature of bigotry is to accept stereotypes, which begin by generalizing from solitary acts to larger groups. I was robbed by a black man, therefore blacks are bad. I was cut off in traffic by an Asian, therefore Asians are bad drivers. My heart was broken by a women, therefore women are devil-spawn. Feeling this way is just part of our evolutionary makeup, our evolutionary psychology, and recognizing this can be very helpful toward resisting these inner impulses to which we're all heir. OMG, why are you explaining this to me. It is plainly clear from the very first post about it, that I do not hold grudges, or hate people for WHAT they are. How many times do I have to explain it, and in how many ways? It's like kindergarten.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 667 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Society. As in, we are social animals, and thus have developed rules for behavior in order to create a more cohesive group. Sorry nator, but that seems like a non-answer to me. What people think is right from wrong seems to be so diverse, that you could never come out with the coin phrase, "do the right thing."
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 667 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Not all Christians are bigots, but most of the ones who post here have certainly displayed bigotry, including you. Sorry nator, but I am not a bigot, or have I said anything bigotry.Not understanding homosexual attraction, has nothing to do with the person doing it. It is people like you that automatically equate the two, and show your prejudice. I do not hate gay people just because they are gay, if I say it one more time....I'll....I'll....
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 667 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
I think what you and NJ might be missing is that over and over again people are telling you exactly the kind of message they get from your participation. How many people does it take saying the same thing before you stop claiming that it is THEY who are not understanding your message? 2? 10? 100? As long as there is a good percentage of people who do understand what I am saying, and address me accordingly, then I will say it is them.
Why? Also, what purpose does this server? How mucher closer to understanding God is bery and dan after their interactions with NJ? I do not read everything that NJ writes. But if what NJ writes is not truth, and beberry, and Dan have the gift from God of discernment. Then they are that much closer to finding God, the real God.
So you say this and yet you proclaim in the OP that these same people will be open to God in those last moments on the brink amongst the fear of death? Impressions are built over a lifetime. This includes impressions of God. And delusions, which will all vanish when all of that does not matter anymore.
I guess, my last question is, did you actually hope to help people discover this lost knowledge or are you trying to make God seem silly and push people away? What effect do YOU think you have had thus far? A push away, might actually be a push closer. Most of what I say, and what Jesus said, does not have an immediate affect. It is only over time, and gathering enough of the evidence, that things can start to make sense. Plus, it is entirely up to God, to bring people to Him. we do not get there by our own efforts. If God did not make that final push in me, I would have never reached the level of faith that I now have (which is still just a very small drop, in a very large bucket). Go to biblegateway.com, and search the word truth in the bible. If what I say is truth, it will find a way to a persons heart, albeit not immediately. If it is not, then I am the one with something to learn. The biggest problem here is that it is always person vs person, or belief vs belief. I don't see things that way, and I see it all as us, the human race, just trying to get along. Can't we all just get along? If you can't get along, then you (not you) are the one with the problem, not me. Because I desire to get along with everyone. I get along with many people who do things that I do not like. I have decided in my life (at a very young age) to put those things to the side, in favor of getting along. It is like a prime directive for me or something. Still, I made oaths, and that stood in the way of getting along with people. I blame the Holy Spirit for making these things known to me, and allowing me to get past these oaths. Personal oaths, are the root of bigotry, prejudice, and hatred. Like ikabod said, religion is a whole package, and that is where the problem starts, but ikabod, the bible says love your enemy. So now what? Oh, and it is not about what affect I have on people, but what affect we have on each other.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 667 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
Instead of waiting till you die to learn The Truth™, why not try to learn something now, when it might do some good? I am always trying. It's clear you don't understand me either. I am not continuing with this vain, it has been discussed enough already.
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riVeRraT Member (Idle past 667 days) Posts: 5788 From: NY USA Joined: |
How is the statement, "Plenty of gay people have done me harm," not stigmatizing them? Ok, I'm done. You answer this question, why did I say that? why did I mention what happened to me. Go back and read. All that is, is you talking things out of context, so that you can blame me for being a bigot, which I am not.
Are you directing this to non-Christians, atheists and agnostics? No, and why would you feel that way, after everything I have explained to you.
This isn't going to go away until you realize within your own mind that gays are not a threat to you. Only when that happens will your unconsciously expressed bigoted views cease, at which time the perceptions of you as a bigot will also cease. This is not a bigoted view, for the last time. I have explained it how many times? Do I need to loose valuable minutes off my life to go back and quote everything? I've explained several times that I do not dislike gay people because they are gay. I do not dislike gay people at all. Those people who just happened to be gay, did not hurt me, because they were gay. Do you get that now? I've said it more than 3 times in this thread alone. You've totally missed the point several times. The point of bringing that up, was to show, that I do not hold grudges, or associated peoples behaviors, with who or what they are. In other words, I am not a bigot. Are you so sensitive to that statement, that it interferes with what I am saying? I've run into many people like that, who let their own ideas, and prejudices block out what people are trying so desperately to tell them. Right now, I see you as prejudice, and bigoted, type of person.
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