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Author Topic:   Was there a worldwide flood?
Repzion
Member (Idle past 3702 days)
Posts: 22
From: Renton,Wa
Joined: 12-04-2006


Message 1 of 372 (411027)
07-18-2007 2:59 PM


Hey, i'm new here and tried posting. It said i needs to be approved. So here it is. Just let me know, if i should change anything.

Was there a worldwide Flood?

The food accounts: There is plenty of evidence that the flood happened just like the Bible says. In fact, more than 200 ancient and present civilizations have reported different cultural accounts of a worldwide flood. Before I show you some of these accounts, let’s review what the Bible says about the Flood.

And the rain came tumbling down.

Long ago, the world became so evil God decided to destroy it with a worldwide flood. He gave a man named Noah special instructions to build an ark to save himself and his family. It took Noah 120 years to build the ark. When the job was completed, Noah and his family went inside the ark and took male and female of every living creature (Genesis 7:1-5). Then God shut them in the ark (7:16) and caused rain from the sky and water from underground to flood the whole planet. Everyone and everything died except Noah and his family and the animals in the ark (Genesis 7:11,21-23). More than one year after the Flood began, the earth was dry and Noah, his family and the animals were able to leave the ark.

What Evidence? Although the flood account is believable, no one can prove it happened because technology hasn’t made time travel possible. But, you know, we don’t need to see the Flood with our own eyes to believe it happened. We have plenty of historical and geological evidence.

Evidence among Different cultures.
Various versions of the Flood account exist among many cultures some of the most detailed being Sumerian and Babylonian. The oldest flood account, dating before 2,000 B.C., has been found in Sumerian tablets near the Euphrates River. Another amazing flood account, found in the 11th book of the Gilgamesh Epic among Babylonian cuneiform writings, provides one of the strongest evidences, apart from the bible, for the Flood. Here are other amazing accounts.

1. China: Fah-he escaped a great flood with his wife as well as his three songs and three daughters.
2. New Guinea: The Lizard man sent a great flood that killed everyone except two brothers, who escaped on a raft.
3. American Athapaskan Indians: Nagaitche survived a flood by riding on a mythological figure called Earth.
4. Peru: A great flood destroyed all humans except six, who escaped on a raft.
5. Alaska: A man, his family, and talking animals survived a flood on a raft. After the flood, the animals, who complained about the long trip on the raft, lost their ability to speak.

Evidence from geology.

Naturally, the only true flood account is recorded in the Bible. Yet, legends among different cultures worldwide provide convincing evidence that there was some kids of accident flood. But legends passed down from generation to generation aren’t as convincing as evidence we can see.

1. Bone Beds
Geologist have discovered large ossiferous fissures ( cracks in the earth caused by earthquakes or other violent changes to the earth’s surface) in England, France, Russia, southern Spain and Germany. Inside these fissures, geologists have found bones of elephants, rhinoceroses, reindeer, pigs, horses, hippopotamuses and oxen. These “bone beds” do not contain skeletons, but bones thrown together. Geologists have discovered one bone bed in Nebraska that they believe contains about 9,000 animals.
What could have cause animals to be ripped apart, thrown together, and buried? One logical explanation is the violent changes in the earth’s surface caused by the Flood.

2. Inland Bodies of Water
According to research, large inland seas once existed on every continent of the world. But since the Flood, some of these bodies of water have completely dried up, becoming what geologists call “ fossil lakes.” The great Gobi Desert in China, for example, was once a sea about as large as the Mediterranean. A lake that geologists call Lake Algonquin once filled the region of the Great Lakes, 26 feet higher than the lakes there today. Lake Bonneville, the size of Lake Michigan, once filled the valley of Salt Lake in Utah. What caused these great inland seas and lakes? Naturally, these inland seas and lakes may have existed for other reasons. But the Flood is a logical explanation.

3. Coal Beds and Oil Fields
Some people believe the large supply of our planet’s coal and oil is the result of billons of years of natural development within the earth. Those who don’t believe the earth is that old take another position. The flood could have buried large amounts of animal and vegetable life, providing our planet’s rich supply of coal and oil.

4. Mammoth Bodies Found in Siberia
Mammoths are extinct members of the elephant family that lived in North America, Europe and Asia. Geologists have discovered 2,000 miles of Siberian countryside filled with literally thousands of mammoth skeletons and carcasses. Some mammoths were found standing upright as they would have walked on the earth. Geologists believe that up to five million mammoths were suddenly frozen alive by unusual changes in the earth’s climate. What killed so many mammoths so quickly? The best explanation is worldwide flood followed by devastating changes in the earth’s climate. Northern areas of the world, once able to sustain life, became arctic, freezing countless mammoths in time.

Well that’s my 2.0

Edited by Repzion, : No reason given.


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AdminNosy
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Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
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Message 2 of 372 (411051)
07-18-2007 4:58 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

:) Feeding time for the lions and tigers :)

Edited by AdminNosy, : an aside


Chiroptera
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Posts: 6802
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003
Member Rating: 6.7


Message 3 of 372 (411056)
07-18-2007 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Repzion
07-18-2007 2:59 PM


Hello, Rep, and welcome to EvC. I hope that you enjoy the discussions here.

And what a discussion we'll have!

Although the flood account is believable....

Well, actually it isn't. It might be if we were all living in the Middle East during the Bronze Age, when and where people believed that the sky was a solid dome holding back an immense amount of water.

But once we realized that the earth is a solid sphere in the midst of a vacuum, the flood story became rather implausible.

-

But, you know, we don’t need to see the Flood with our own eyes to believe it happened. We have plenty of historical and geological evidence.

The second sentence is false, but I'm glad to see the first sentence. Most creationists say that we can't really know what happened in the past, and that we can interpret the evidence any way we want. I'm happy to see a creationist who does admit that we can learn a lot about the past, and even rule scenarios out, by examining the evidence that exists in the present.

-

4. Mammoth Bodies Found in Siberia

Actually, the mammoth story isn't true. But the part I like is:

The best explanation is worldwide flood followed by devastating changes in the earth’s climate. Northern areas of the world, once able to sustain life, became arctic, freezing countless mammoths in time.

So, you are claiming that these mammoths were drowned in a global flood, buried under flood sediments, and then, after the water receded, they froze to death?

You might want to think this one through a little more.


Q: If science doesn't know where this comes from, then couldn't it be God's doing?

A: The only difference between that kind of thinking and the stereotype of the savage who thinks the Great White Hunter is a God because he doesn't know how the hunter's cigarette lighter works is that the savage has an excuse for his ignorance. -- jhuger


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Jazzns
Member (Idle past 2195 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 4 of 372 (411064)
07-18-2007 5:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Repzion
07-18-2007 2:59 PM


Your other points are easily refuted. But point 3 in particular shows us not just that the idea is wrong, but that more careful examination tells us that the food in fact DID NOT happen.

3. Coal Beds and Oil Fields

One of the biggest problem for flood geology is the sheer QUANTITY of biologically derived material buried in the earth. Coal and Oil are only one kind of biologically derived materials. If you add up the sheer mass of compressed material (that we know about) you quickly come to the conclusion that the surface of the earth is not large enough to accomidate all of those lifeforms at the same time.

The reason all of that fits into the earth now is because it is both compressed and it is buried in depth. As soon as you have to take into account that all of the things that comprise coal and oil had to at one point in time, at effectivly the same time, be alive and growing on the surface of the earth, the idea that they were all killed and deposited quickly is instantly falsified by the fact that there is simply not enough room.

Creationists also need to get their stories straight. In response to this, some creationists have said that oil is not biological in origin but rather that it somehow is created deep within the earth. This has also been falsified but it goes to show you that even some creationists realize that the quantity of material formed by biomass in the earth is a killer for flood geology.

There are other problems with flood geology, such as how large structures of evaporite minerals could make layers during the flood. Evaporites are types of rock created by evaporation. You can evaporate a whole lake of very "salty" water and get mere millimeters of salt or gypsum to accumulate. Some large evaporite layers are dozens of meters tall.

You could say that the flood receeded and allowed time to evaporate before returning but that would not be consistent. Remember the bible says that there was only one flood. There is also problem considering the amount of time it would take to produce these layers in the earth that are then buried by even more layers that have different properties that take time that just simply cannot fit into a year time frame.

There are many more "silver-bullet" evidences that disprove a global flood. What I listed here are merely some of them. If you stick around and ask, there are plenty more to show you if you are not convinced by those.


Of course, biblical creationists are committed to belief in God's written Word, the Bible, which forbids bearing false witness; --AIG (lest they forget)

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jar
Member
Posts: 31462
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.0


Message 5 of 372 (411069)
07-18-2007 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Repzion
07-18-2007 2:59 PM


No, there has never been a world wide flood.
What Evidence? Although the flood account is believable, no one can prove it happened because technology hasn’t made time travel possible.

Actually the flood account might have been believable even as recently as 250 years ago, it was not probable even then. Believing in a word wide flood today it is simply silly, there has never been a world wide flood.

If something like that had happened, we most certainly could prove it. There would be evidence in geology, biology and in particular, genetics.

Others I am sure will deal with the geological evidence, but let me deal with the genetic, since it sounds an absolute death knell for the Biblical Flood Myth.

If the Biblical Flood had happened, there would have been a bottleneck event in EVERY species of living critter and all pointing to exactly the same period and also that bottleneck even would be almost yesterday as gentic time goes.

Well, the geneticists can see bottle neck events in some species, but they are all at different times and most are tens or hundreds of thousands of years in the past.

The genetic information shows that there has not been a single unique bottleneck event affecting all species.

The Flood never happened. Period.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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RAZD
Member
Posts: 20155
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 6 of 372 (411090)
07-18-2007 8:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Repzion
07-18-2007 2:59 PM


here we go again ...
Evidence among Different cultures.
Various versions of the Flood account exist among many cultures some of the most detailed being Sumerian and Babylonian. The oldest flood account, dating before 2,000 B.C., has been found in Sumerian tablets near the Euphrates River. Another amazing flood account, found in the 11th book of the Gilgamesh Epic among Babylonian cuneiform writings, provides one of the strongest evidences, apart from the bible, for the Flood. Here are other amazing accounts.

1. China: Fah-he escaped a great flood with his wife as well as his three songs and three daughters.
2. New Guinea: The Lizard man sent a great flood that killed everyone except two brothers, who escaped on a raft.
3. American Athapaskan Indians: Nagaitche survived a flood by riding on a mythological figure called Earth.
4. Peru: A great flood destroyed all humans except six, who escaped on a raft.
5. Alaska: A man, his family, and talking animals survived a flood on a raft. After the flood, the animals, who complained about the long trip on the raft, lost their ability to speak.

The older ones -- from which the biblical flood was likely derived -- were the Sumerian and Babylonian myths, thus their similarity.

Of course my favorite that exactly matches the biblical flood story is the Norse myth:

http://www.pitt.edu/~dash/creation.html

quote:
The death of Ymir
Odin, Vili, and Vé killed the giant Ymir.

When Ymir fell, there issued from his wounds such a flood of blood, that all the frost ogres were drowned, except for the giant Bergelmir who escaped with his wife by climbing onto a lur [a hollowed-out tree trunk that could serve either as a boat or a coffin]. From them spring the families of frost ogres.


It amazes me that anyone could think this and the biblical flood could be different stories. :rolleyes:

The other ones are coincidentally similar but specifically different in character: a raft is not a boat built to the task and filled with animals. Different cast of characters on board. And I suspect that if one looked at the rest of the myths and not JUST the superficial similarities that there would be SUBSTANTIAL differences.

The logical conclusion is that all these people experienced floods because -- gasp -- they lived on flood plains.

What we have here is a failure of logic and critical thinking.

Naturally, the only true flood account is recorded in the Bible.

Naturally this is a complete leap of faith and not supported by any of the evidence, and is just another example of a breakdown in logic and critical thinking.

Gosh all those myths talked about people walking around too: what an amazing coincidence!!!!

Spare me.

Was there a worldwide Flood?

Short answer: no.

Long answer: at no time in the natural history of the earth is there any evidence consistent with a single world wide flood.

Hey, i'm new here ...

Obviously, as this is a favorite creationist PRATT (point refuted a thousand times). Of course you did not reference your source material (a big no-no for several reasons, one of which is to allow people to check your references for accuracy, a thing creationist sites are not well known for).

I expect you are also likely young or at least inexperienced in facing real facts about the world we live in -- you certainly have a lot to learn.

Keep an open mind an you will learn something.

Enjoy.

ps welcome to the fray.


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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 776 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 7 of 372 (411091)
07-18-2007 8:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Repzion
07-18-2007 2:59 PM


One more thing about floods...
In fact, more than 200 ancient and present civilizations have reported different cultural accounts of a worldwide flood.

The assumption here is that because ancient cultures share a Flood myth, this must be a shared mythology which has passed down from earlier civilizations.

Well, there are several problems with this. Here's one simple example, by the time line given for the flood, the Aborigenies were already in Australia, which means either a) they were all killed off and replaced by Noah's decendants who then subsequently also became aborigenies, or b) they were spared by the Flood (which can't be true).

So, how could this be? What could these societies share in common that makes a world wide flood a common myth?

Well, for starters, all of these societies are populated by humans.

Look at the flood myths and you will find that they are nearly universally about the birth or re-birth of the world.

Have you heard the expression "my water broke"? The birthing process which would be same for all of these human societies, and which is perhaps the most significant event these people would witness, involves a release of water prior to the emergence of the child.

Water is a universal symbol for birth/rebirth largely due to this.

So, mythologies involving birth / rebirth are largely going to rely on water as a metaphor.

I find it interesting that Flood proponents will point to flood myths as evidence of God's role, but ignore the pantheon of other Gods which come along with plunging a society for it's myths.

Are we to think that these cultures, upon witnessing God's most devistating wrath, the total destruction of virtually all life on the planet, took away from it a memory of a flood but not of the God who caused it?


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Taz
Member (Idle past 1575 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 8 of 372 (411096)
07-18-2007 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Repzion
07-18-2007 2:59 PM


Other people have summed up well the arguments against the evidence for the flood you have presented. I just want to add something to this.

One might ask why there are so many stories about a "world wide" flood in different cultures around the world? There are 2 main reasons for this coincidence.

(1) For the people in the Bronze Age, a flood was a pretty big deal. It's still a pretty big deal today. It's a natural disaster that happened just often enough to be a bigger deal than the rarer natural disasters like earthquakes and volcanic eruptions but not often enough to kill off the civilizations back then.

Unlike today, there was no national aids, no insurance, and certainly no international aids. There was no helicopters to rescue stranded people. No relief shelters. In other words, to the ancients a flood would have meant the end of their particular world, which brings me to the second reason.

(2) For the people in the Bronze Age, the world to them was pretty much the local area that they grew up in. They imagined the world to be a big place, but to our standard to day their world was tiny and insignificant. A local flood to these people literally meant judgement day for their whole world.

Again, you have to remember that we are talking about people in the early to mid Bronze Age. Life for most people was a daily struggle. The normal person was malnourished, diseased, overworked, underpaid, and certainly very ignorant of everything except the work he did. Now, imagine him waking up one morning and seeing all around him nothing but water, and the water level is rising by the minute. Trees are being washed away. People are screaming. Houses are falling and washed away. As far as the eye can see, there is no escape. Oh, and have I mentioned that there was no helicopters back then to help rescue these people? Now, use your imagination and see if you can at least empathize with these Bronze Age peasants that got caught in a local flood. To them, the world had just started to end.

In fact, more than 200 ancient and present civilizations have reported different cultural accounts of a worldwide flood.

Let me ask you this. The ancient people of the Bronze Age didn't even know the world was round. If there was a world wide flood, how on Earth do you suppose they figured out that there was no place in the world that was not flooded?


Disclaimer:

Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.

He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!


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Repzion
Member (Idle past 3702 days)
Posts: 22
From: Renton,Wa
Joined: 12-04-2006


Message 9 of 372 (411099)
07-18-2007 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Chiroptera
07-18-2007 5:12 PM


Um, I don't see a quote option anywere?

"Actually, the mammoth story isn't true."

Actually it is.

http://news.aol.com/story/_a/baby-mammoth-corpse-found-in-siberia/20070711101609990002

I'll try to respond to your guys questions, and arugments tomorrow, I have to go to work for my family. And as for my age..Yes i'm young I'm age 15.

Edited by Repzion, : No reason given.


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subbie
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 10 of 372 (411102)
07-18-2007 10:29 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Repzion
07-18-2007 10:11 PM


You said this:

Mammoths are extinct members of the elephant family that lived in North America, Europe and Asia. Geologists have discovered 2,000 miles of Siberian countryside filled with literally thousands of mammoth skeletons and carcasses. Some mammoths were found standing upright as they would have walked on the earth. Geologists believe that up to five million mammoths were suddenly frozen alive by unusual changes in the earth’s climate.

The news story said one baby mammoth was found. Another story on the topic said the mammoth's tail and ear were bitten off. This would pretty much negate any suggestion that it was "suddenly frozen alive."


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Repzion
Member (Idle past 3702 days)
Posts: 22
From: Renton,Wa
Joined: 12-04-2006


Message 11 of 372 (411107)
07-18-2007 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by subbie
07-18-2007 10:29 PM


So your saying because its eye and tail were bitten off, it couldn't of been suddenly frozen?

Edited by Repzion, : No reason given.


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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8863
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 4.6


Message 12 of 372 (411108)
07-18-2007 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Repzion
07-18-2007 10:11 PM


Numbers
The story is of ONE mammoth. Where is your source for 1,000's frozen?

There are bones found but very, very few frozen. It appears the number is about 40. Your number was 5 million wasn't it? That is one major thing (you would agree that 40 is not near 5 million right?) utterly wrong. (btw, only about 5 or so are nearly complete).

You need to supply your source so it can be examined for accuracy. It is entirely possible that you have been lied to.


This message is a reply to:
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subbie
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 13 of 372 (411109)
07-18-2007 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Repzion
07-18-2007 11:27 PM


Curious that you completely ignored the question about how many mammoths there were....

I'm saying that if it had been "suddenly frozen" as you claim and it was found frozen, it's unlikely that there would have been anything around to nibble its ear and tail off.

BTW, it's a pet peeve of mine, but you shouldn't say "couldn't of been." The phrase is "couldn't have been."


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


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ringo
Member
Posts: 17403
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 14 of 372 (411110)
07-18-2007 11:34 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Repzion
07-18-2007 2:59 PM


Repzion writes:

Geologists believe that up to five million mammoths were suddenly frozen alive...

Assuming that that's true:

Where I live, a few people are "suddenly frozen alive" every year.

... by unusual changes in the earth’s climate.

We call those changes "winter".

What killed so many mammoths so quickly?

Each one was frozen quickly. Nobody said they were all frozen at the same time. A few this winter, a few next winter... eventually adds up to quite a few frozen mammoths.

There is nothing mysterious in the mammoth story and nothing whatsoever to indicate a flood of any kind.


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subbie
Member (Idle past 28 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 15 of 372 (411115)
07-18-2007 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Repzion
07-18-2007 10:11 PM


I'd also like to point out that it's more than a little amusing to see you cite to a mammoth that was frozen some 40,000 years ago, according to the article, to support your contention about an event that you presumably believe happened some 4,000 years ago.

So, since you are promoting the mammoth find in support of your position, does that mean you believe the Earth is more than 6,000 years old?


Those who would sacrifice an essential liberty for a temporary security will lose both, and deserve neither. -- Benjamin Franklin

We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat


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