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Author Topic:   Was there a worldwide flood?
NosyNed
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Posts: 8842
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003
Member Rating: 7.4


Message 31 of 372 (411203)
07-19-2007 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by Theagle
07-19-2007 2:05 AM


Furry Fellows
bison perhaps? T
North Dakota winter perhaps?

Before I explain this corrilation, I'd like to state that mammoths, dispite most artists seem to think, were NOT frozen tundra animals. The fur coat on the discovered wolly mammoths is not thick enough to have kept the animals warm in a Siberian winter as we see it today. In fact, it isn't much if any thicker then we see on many moderate climate animals today, bison perhaps? Therefore, it stands to reason that there was SOMEthing that happened to change the climate of northern Siberia while the mammoths were already there. It also stands to reason that that is what caused the mammoths (not to mention the other animals that have been found frozen in the Siberian wasteland) to have frozen with food still in their mouths (as was in the case of one of the Berezovka mammoths)

And your source that the fur isn't thick enough? And you explanation of the other indications of the climate at the time? Ice age remember?

Please supply references and clear reasoning. Your AiG paste doesn't support flash freezing. The conditions described would take days or weeks to cool the earth. No "frozen while eating" nonsense.

It also appears that AiG has decided that the Bible is missing a lot. It fails to mention anything of what they need to invent. I guess the God they believe in needs some help.

So how else would you suggust that a fossil made it to the top of a mountain?

Before you criticize modern science maybe you should find out something about it. You haven't heard of plate tectonics? Do you know what the nature of the fossils on tops of mountains are? (hint: they are NOT the clams you find on your beach today) If you look into these details you'll find that your flood hypothosis breaks down.


This message is a reply to:
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dwise1
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Posts: 3405
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 8.5


Message 32 of 372 (411205)
07-19-2007 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Repzion
07-18-2007 2:59 PM


Yes, but not what you think.
Actually, yes there was a world-wide flood. But not the way that you think. It wasn't a one-year sudden deluge which reformed all geology and then subsided. As others have pointed out, the evidence does not indicate your idea of a Noahian Flood. And the waters of the actual world-wide flood have never subsided. Plus, we are facing the very real threat of increased flooding.

The actual world-wide flood started about 11,000 to 17,000 years ago at the end of the Wisconsinan ice age when the ice cap melted, causing the sea level to rise about 200 feet over several thousand years until it reached its current level around 5,500 BCE.

If you examine a world map that includes elevations and ocean depths, you will see several areas in which the ocean's depths are less than 200 feet. Like the Bering Strait and the Persian Gulf. Those were dry land before the sea level rose to flood them.

Now consider the effect of that flooding. Human populations tend to concentrate along the shorelines and in the lowlands. Therefore, it would be very surprising NOT to encounter flood stories world-wide as those cultures transmitted oral traditions telling of how they were forced out of their ancestral lands and had to flee to higher ground. The stories would have been more dramatic in those cases of lowlands that had been protected for a time by a natural dam until the sea level finally rose above that dam; the breaching of the Straits of Gibraltar and the flooding of the Black Sea are well-known examples of that.

And now with global warming threatening to melt the ice caps on Greenland and Antarctica, the sea level will rise even higher flooding out even more lowlands and forcing even more whole populations of humans to higher dry land.

Edited by dwise1, : No reason given.


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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 601 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 33 of 372 (411207)
07-19-2007 12:30 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Theagle
07-19-2007 2:05 AM


One little piece...
I'm going to ignore most of your post as it's just a giant cut & paste from AiG which has been universal refuted in at least 100 threads and 1000 posts.

Here's what I'm going to discuss and leave the rest to the other posters...

It's scientifically impossible for a animal to just die from old age or a heart attack or something an turn into a fossil (which, I can explain if you want me to). Fossils can only be made in the presence of a lot of mud and pressure (a flood?)(I can also explain that if you want me to) So how else would you sugust that a fossil made it to the top of a mountain?

There are several things wrong with this statement.

First, what is "scientifically impossible"? And, how would you determine if a fossilized animal died of old age or a heart attack? How do you know that the fossil of a T-Rex didn't die of old age?

Second, "Fossils can only be made in the presence of a lot of mud and pressure", this is false on it's face. Many of the best fossils, particularly the ones out of China displaying the development of feathers, come from volcanic ash beds. There is no mud present whatsoever. "fossils can ONLY be made..." - false

Lastly, "So how else would you sugust that a fossil made it to the top of a mountain?", you are assuming that what is currently the top of a mountain was always the top of a mountain. This is naive. You are aware of plate tectonics I assume, the process by which the Earth's surface shifts. Earthquakes are a side-effect. Another side effect is called uplift. This is when one plate is forced above the other.

If uplift is occuring, we'd expect to see a couple of things. Mountain ranges along a line - for example, like they are.

We'd also expect to find that "young" mountains, those formed due to ongoing processies would continue to rise.

Hence, Everest rises about 4mm a year. Not very much, but then again, the Earth isn't 6000 years old, so 4mm a year really adds up.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Repzion
Member (Idle past 3526 days)
Posts: 22
From: Renton,Wa
Joined: 12-04-2006


Message 34 of 372 (411210)
07-19-2007 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Nuggin
07-19-2007 12:30 PM


Re: One little piece...
"Another side effect is called uplift." Please....

It does seem that the mountain might
have once been under water. But a different story seems far closer to
the truth, a story based on careful study of the way the Earth is now,
combined with study of how materials behave. After all, what is
science about? Many tens of millions of years ago, there were once
some continental shelves, much like those of today. Sediment piled
onto them, as sediment does today. Fish lived and died, and got buried
in the sediment, just like today. As sediment accumulated on top, the
lower sediment got heated and compressed, and was turned into rock.
What next? Continental drift, with some crust plates running into each
other. This sediment got squeezed between two continents, or was
lifted up as an ocean plate was forced downward (both processes
happen), than the fish or any other type fossils get carried with the rock to highaltitudes. Thus, fish fossils in high mountains.....

Seriously... Anyways, explain uplift. I'd love to hear how fossils end up on mountians. In your point of view.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Nuggin, posted 07-19-2007 12:30 PM Nuggin has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 41 by Modulous, posted 07-19-2007 2:37 PM Repzion has not yet responded

  
Repzion
Member (Idle past 3526 days)
Posts: 22
From: Renton,Wa
Joined: 12-04-2006


Message 35 of 372 (411211)
07-19-2007 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Nuggin
07-19-2007 12:30 PM


Re: One little piece...
"Another side effect is called uplift." Please....

It does seem that the mountain might
have once been under water. But a different story seems far closer to
the truth, a story based on careful study of the way the Earth is now,
combined with study of how materials behave. After all, what is
science about? Many tens of millions of years ago, there were once
some continental shelves, much like those of today. Sediment piled
onto them, as sediment does today. Fish lived and died, and got buried
in the sediment, just like today. As sediment accumulated on top, the
lower sediment got heated and compressed, and was turned into rock.
What next? Continental drift, with some crust plates running into each
other. This sediment got squeezed between two continents, or was
lifted up as an ocean plate was forced downward (both processes
happen), than the fish or any other type fossils get carried with the rock to highaltitudes. Thus, fish fossils in high mountains.....

Seriously... Anyways, explain uplift. I'd love to hear how fossils end up on mountians. In your point of view.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Percy, posted 07-19-2007 2:03 PM Repzion has not yet responded
 Message 39 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-19-2007 2:23 PM Repzion has not yet responded
 Message 42 by RAZD, posted 07-19-2007 2:45 PM Repzion has not yet responded
 Message 43 by Chiroptera, posted 07-19-2007 2:56 PM Repzion has not yet responded
 Message 44 by Nuggin, posted 07-19-2007 6:00 PM Repzion has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18371
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 36 of 372 (411215)
07-19-2007 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Repzion
07-19-2007 12:37 AM


Repzion writes:

I keep hearing people say " A flood never happened" Well instead of asking me to keep giving information, how about you give me information on how a flood did not happen?

Sure, as soon as you give us information on how you didn't rob a suburban Renton bank yesterday.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Repzion, posted 07-19-2007 12:37 AM Repzion has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 18371
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 37 of 372 (411216)
07-19-2007 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Repzion
07-19-2007 1:31 PM


Re: One little piece...
Hi Repzion,

I don't understand your post. First you question uplift:

Repzion writes:

"Another side effect is called uplift." Please....

Then you explain uplift and how sea fossils appear on mountain tops:

It does seem that the mountain might
have once been under water. But a different story seems far closer to
the truth, a story based on careful study of the way the Earth is now,
combined with study of how materials behave. After all, what is
science about? Many tens of millions of years ago, there were once
some continental shelves, much like those of today. Sediment piled
onto them, as sediment does today. Fish lived and died, and got buried
in the sediment, just like today. As sediment accumulated on top, the
lower sediment got heated and compressed, and was turned into rock.
What next? Continental drift, with some crust plates running into each
other. This sediment got squeezed between two continents, or was
lifted up as an ocean plate was forced downward (both processes
happen), than the fish or any other type fossils get carried with the rock to highaltitudes. Thus, fish fossils in high mountains.....

Then you ask for an explanation of what you just finished explaining:

Seriously... Anyways, explain uplift. I'd love to hear how fossils end up on mountians. In your point of view.

Is the long paragraph actually an excerpt from somewhere? If so, and it isn't a satisfactory explanation for you, just let us know and we'll try to provide more information.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Repzion, posted 07-19-2007 1:31 PM Repzion has not yet responded

  
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2036 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 38 of 372 (411217)
07-19-2007 2:18 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by Repzion
07-19-2007 12:29 AM


If there wasn't a flood, how do you explain Dinosaur fossils found on Mt. Everest.

if there are such fossils, i do believe that dinosaurs had legs, no? in case you've been smoking something, bones are dense and SINK in water. how would a worldwide flood explain that there are fossils on top of a mountain, what with mountains tending to be in the general UP direction?


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 Message 17 by Repzion, posted 07-19-2007 12:29 AM Repzion has not yet responded

Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16093
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 9.0


Message 39 of 372 (411218)
07-19-2007 2:23 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Repzion
07-19-2007 1:31 PM


Uplift
Uplift can be observed and measured.

On the other hand, no-one has seen a magic flood wash oyster beds up a mountain without disturbing their arrangement, as Leonardo da Vinci pointed out.

Moreover, it is plain that the amount of organic sediment in the rocks is much too great to have been deposited in a single event. Do you know what limestone is made of?

For more evidence against the flood myth, I refer you to jar's post. The genetic bottlenecks we'd see if the Noah story were true just aren't there.

---

P.S: I remember seeing somewhere on this forum a picture of strata of petrified forests that were on top of one another, if you see what I mean ... does anyone know what I mean and where I can find it?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Repzion, posted 07-19-2007 1:31 PM Repzion has not yet responded

macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 2036 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 40 of 372 (411219)
07-19-2007 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Theagle
07-19-2007 2:05 AM


from your source
An Ice Age also requires huge amounts of water in the atmosphere, which then falls as snow.

um. what? since when does an ice age require snow? snow doesn't cause cold.

It's scientifically impossible for a animal to just die from old age or a heart attack or something an turn into a fossil

twat?
that's just crazy talk. it may be unlikely for a whole skeleton to become fossilized all together unless there's some kind of deluge event or the critter falls into quicksand, but there's almost no evidence from fossils about how the animal died and absolutely no reason why a bone can't get covered by sediment and then become fossilized. and i'm not really sure about all this pressure talk anyways. we're talking about chemical leeching and recomposition, not diamonds.


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Modulous
Member (Idle past 212 days)
Posts: 7789
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 41 of 372 (411222)
07-19-2007 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Repzion
07-19-2007 1:29 PM


A simplified model of geology
Anyways, explain uplift. I'd love to hear how fossils end up on mountians.

Not just on mountains - mostly in the mountains. Take a flexible plastic sheet and put it into a puddle near a curb. Move the plastic sheet towards the curb, when it hits the curb the plastic will begin to fold and crease and will uplift so that some of it is no longer in the puddle. The plastic will nevertheless covered in a crust of dirt.

Now, replace the dirty puddle with the Tethys sea, replace the plastic sheet with India and the curb with Asia. Here the land ripples and creases as India pushes against Asia. The crust of dirt is about 1500ft of dead animal parts, cemented together to form sedimentary rock. If the flooding was about one year long it would not be 1500ft deep.

The important difference between the analogy and reality is that the Indian subcontinent is pushing itself so hard it is going underneath the 'curb' that is Asia.


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 Message 34 by Repzion, posted 07-19-2007 1:29 PM Repzion has not yet responded

RAZD
Member
Posts: 19817
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 42 of 372 (411224)
07-19-2007 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Repzion
07-19-2007 1:31 PM


Some more pieces ...
type [qs]quote boxes are easy[/qs] and it becomes:

quote boxes are easy

type [quote]quote boxes are easy[/quote] and it becomes:

quote:
quotes are easy

This information is also freely given under dBCodes (help) in the left side bar of the reply window.

Further on the issue of other flood myths: many cultures have creation myths where land is separated from water -- not unlike genesis, but these cultures have no other flood myth. Based on the logic of your thinking this means there has been no flood since creation ....

Japanese Creation Myth
Mojave-Apache flood myth
Apache Creation Myth
Tuskegee Creation Myth
Iroqois Creation Myth

Also
Australian Legend of the Great Flood is not a world wide flood ...
Flood Myth of the Incas is not a world wide flood and no boat was necessary ...

Finally there are cultures with no flood myths for creation or after, such as:

Makah Creation Myth

Enjoy.


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This message is a reply to:
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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6531
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 43 of 372 (411226)
07-19-2007 2:56 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Repzion
07-19-2007 1:31 PM


Re: One little piece...
Anyways, explain uplift. I'd love to hear how fossils end up on mountians. In your point of view.

As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words:

hese pictures were taken in the aftermath of an earthquake in Montana in 1959. Do you see how mountains might form if we have enough time?

These pictures were taken in the aftermath of an earthquake in Montana in 1959.


Q: If science doesn't know where this comes from, then couldn't it be God's doing?

A: The only difference between that kind of thinking and the stereotype of the savage who thinks the Great White Hunter is a God because he doesn't know how the hunter's cigarette lighter works is that the savage has an excuse for his ignorance. -- jhuger


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Nuggin
Member (Idle past 601 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 44 of 372 (411252)
07-19-2007 6:00 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Repzion
07-19-2007 1:31 PM


Re: One little piece...
I don't know if you are replying to the wrong person, but you've basically given a pretty good explaination of uplift - which is what I was saying.

I don't understand the last part of your post, as you seem to be in total agreement with me on the geology and geography


This message is a reply to:
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sidelined
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 372 (411291)
07-19-2007 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Repzion
07-18-2007 2:59 PM


Repzion

Evidence among Different cultures.
Various versions of the Flood account exist among many cultures some of the most detailed being Sumerian and Babylonian. The oldest flood account, dating before 2,000 B.C., has been found in Sumerian tablets near the Euphrates River. Another amazing flood account, found in the 11th book of the Gilgamesh Epic among Babylonian cuneiform writings, provides one of the strongest evidences, apart from the bible, for the Flood. Here are other amazing accounts.

1. China: Fah-he escaped a great flood with his wife as well as his three songs and three daughters.
2. New Guinea: The Lizard man sent a great flood that killed everyone except two brothers, who escaped on a raft.
3. American Athapaskan Indians: Nagaitche survived a flood by riding on a mythological figure called Earth.
4. Peru: A great flood destroyed all humans except six, who escaped on a raft.
5. Alaska: A man, his family, and talking animals survived a flood on a raft. After the flood, the animals, who complained about the long trip on the raft, lost their ability to speak.

So you begin this section by using the legends of floods around the world as evidence for a world wide flood and then in this nest section here

Evidence from geology.

Naturally, the only true flood account is recorded in the Bible. Yet, legends among different cultures worldwide provide convincing evidence that there was some kids of accident flood. But legends passed down from generation to generation aren’t as convincing as evidence we can see.

you dismiss the evidence you presented by stating that the only true flood account is the one of the Bible. That is detrimental to your argument and should be explained don't you think?

As for other nations having flood legends the mundane answer would be that civilizations tend to occupy land that is close to water sources and these water sources do have the tendency to flood one in awhile.


"We patronize animals for their incompleteness, for their tragic fate of having taken form so far below ourselves. And therein we err, and greatly err. For the animal shall not be measured by man. In a world older and more complete than ours, they move finished and complete, gifted with extensions of the senses we have lost or never attained, living by voices we shall never hear. They are not brethren, they are not underlings; they are other nations, caught with ourselves in the net of life, fellow prisoners of the splendor and travail of the earth." - Henry Beston
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