Ignorance and Arrogance

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Originally posted by joz:
1)Still hasnt answered the question.

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However your response is only valid if I accept some form of mind body duality, I don`t, as far as i can tell there is no ghost in the machine.... Consequently my response is simply how can i care about something I do not have?

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2)Once again Not a reply to my original statement.

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Again only valid if mind body duality actualy exists....

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Also if God is the sort of small minded despot who would send a good man to hell for not believing in him I don`t want anything to do with him, lake of fire here I come....

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3)Wow why don`t you move the goal posts, earlier you said you just had to believe now you have to have faith in him. I was talking about people like the spanish inquisition (or if thats too catholic for you Cramner) lovely folks who tortured people and burnt others at the stake precisely because they beliveved and had faith in God.....

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Then there is the KKK....

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The crusaders....

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And various serial killers....

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Lovely bunch to have to spend eternity with....

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1) its ghost in the shell :-)have you watched that movie? it kicks ass. also your soul is what makes you you, its what makes you human. i dont see how you could think you dont have one2) he created you he can do whatever he damn well pleases :-) this is the general human way of thinking too. just because you created something doesnt mean its yours. We are gods children. however it doesnt mean that we cant reject this and have faith in whatever idol we choose, it does mean that if you dont want god then god doesnt want you.3)all of that is hypothetical and god despises things like the KKK and religious wars. Dogma's character played by chris rock made the interesting point that he despises things like religious wars and especially religions because no one ever gets it right and it just causes problems. As long as you have complete faith in christ it doesnt matter how often you go to church or what religion your in. Also as long as that person knows what there doing is wrong and they beg for their forgiveness then they can gain salvation, of course you cant just say you have faith in god; you have to actually have faith and prove it to get salvation and forgiveness.i hope i managed to actually reply to your questions. :-)------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi

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[This message has been edited by KingPenguin, 02-09-2002]

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[This message has been edited by KingPenguin, 02-09-2002]

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:
all of that is hypothetical and god despises things like the KKK and religious wars. Dogma's character played by chris rock made the interesting point that he despises things like religious wars and especially religions because no one ever gets it right and it just causes problems. As long as you have complete faith in christ it doesnt matter how often you go to church or what religion your in. Also as long as that person knows what there doing is wrong and they beg for their forgiveness then they can gain salvation, of course you cant just say you have faith in god; you have to actually have faith and prove it to get salvation and forgiveness.

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KP, isn't that entire paragraph hypothetical?------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

its fact, read the bible man.------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:
1)your soul is what you are, its what you like, hate, love, etc. its what makes you human.

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Ah. Then you have your own private definition of the word 'soul'. I have what you describe; it is properly called a mind. It will die when my body does.

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2)its not in the bible but its what your taught probably just to keep you in line.

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In other words, you can't back up what you said scripturally in any way; it's your own idea, conjured up from goodness-knows-where.

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3)my definition of faith is having complete trust in him, love, belief, and letting him guide you through life. belief is just saying that hes there and that you think he is.

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Ah, well that explains it. You DO have your own definition of 'faith'. That's nice, but it makes it hard to communicate with others. I suggest it might be easier to use words to have the meaning that everyone else thinks they have, as well.

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:

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its fact, read the bible man.

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:

Also as long as that person knows what there doing is wrong and they beg for their forgiveness then they can gain salvation, of course you cant just say you have faith in god; you have to actually have faith and prove it to get salvation and forgiveness.

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I assume this was directed at me. Do you have an evidential basis to take the divine aspects of the bible as fact? If not, it's a silly claim, & isn't fact.Mark------------------
Occam's razor is not for shaving with.

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:
god despises things like the KKK and religious wars....[God] despises things like religious wars and especially religions

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Sorry to tell you this, but judging by the amount of wars God started/caused to start/ordered others to start in the OT, he must love them, not despise them.And, sorry again, but if God despises religions, then he despises the very act of believing in him and/or having faith in him. Either of those acts is religious. If you believe in god, you practice a religion. I THINK you meant 'organised religion', not 'religion'.

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:
1) its ghost in the shell :-)have you watched that movie? it kicks ass. also your soul is what makes you you, its what makes you human. i dont see how you could think you dont have one.

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It took me a while to track down but "Ghost in the machine" was a phrase coined by Gilbert Ryle (1900-1976) in his attack on Descartes Dualism....From:
http://www.erraticimpact.com/~analytic/ryle.htmRyle argued that the mind is not a non-physical substance residing in the body, "a ghost in a machine," but a set of capacities and abilities belonging to the body. The "ghost in the machine" is a derogatory term coined by him to abuse Dualism - the theory that human beings are comprised of a tangible body and an intangible mind.So no KP it is Ghost in the machine not ghost in the shell......Also I think i don`t have a soul because I subscribe to a functionalist position.....

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[This message has been edited by joz, 02-17-2002]

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:

since the choice to believe is up to individual...
and from a previous post in another thread:
No religion will never be able to explain or understand god, but a person can through emotion...

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Many Christians have told me this as well. And I just don't understand why you think a belief is a choice I can make.Believing in something is not a decision you make. The decision you make is whether or not you will read the bible. You either Believe or you don't. You do not have control over the fact you believe in God. You only have control over the fact that you read all the information.Myself, I do not believe. I have tried, by reading the bible, talking to friends and lots and lots of thinking. My beliefs are not by choice, but rather a result of all the information I have taken in.Belief is an emotion/feeling, if someone or thing close to you dies, would you decide to be sad? or would you just be sad. Which brings me back to your statement. Describe to me how believing in Jesus is a choice I can make.

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[This message has been edited by no2creation, 02-17-2002]

KP look up two posts and aknowledge please....

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Originally posted by joz:
It took me a while to track down but "Ghost in the machine" was a phrase coined by Gilbert Ryle (1900-1976) in his attack on Descartes Dualism....

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From:
http://www.erraticimpact.com/~analytic/ryle.htm

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Ryle argued that the mind is not a non-physical substance residing in the body, "a ghost in a machine," but a set of capacities and abilities belonging to the body. The "ghost in the machine" is a derogatory term coined by him to abuse Dualism - the theory that human beings are comprised of a tangible body and an intangible mind.

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So no KP it is Ghost in the machine not ghost in the shell......

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Also I think i don`t have a soul because I subscribe to a functionalist position.....

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[This message has been edited by joz, 02-17-2002]

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"Ghost In The Shell" is an anime movie. I don't believe KP was trying to use Deus Ex Machina here.

i was referring to the movie.------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi

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Originally posted by no2creation:

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:

since the choice to believe is up to individual...
and from a previous post in another thread:
No religion will never be able to explain or understand god, but a person can through emotion...

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Many Christians have told me this as well. And I just don't understand why you think a belief is a choice I can make.

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Believing in something is not a decision you make. The decision you make is whether or not you will read the bible. You either Believe or you don't. You do not have control over the fact you believe in God. You only have control over the fact that you read all the information.

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Myself, I do not believe. I have tried, by reading the bible, talking to friends and lots and lots of thinking. My beliefs are not by choice, but rather a result of all the information I have taken in.

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Belief is an emotion/feeling, if someone or thing close to you dies, would you decide to be sad? or would you just be sad. Which brings me back to your statement. Describe to me how believing in Jesus is a choice I can make.

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[This message has been edited by no2creation, 02-17-2002]

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everything you do in life is a choice and a decision for you to make. in the end only you decide what you do but your most important decision is whether or not to accept jesus into your life.------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi

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Originally posted by KingPenguin:
everything you do in life is a choice and a decision for you to make. in the end only you decide what you do but your most important decision is whether or not to accept jesus into your life.

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Thanks for the reply.I can decide to read the bible (and I have). I can decide to go to church (I have attended many churches). I can decide to be good (and I believe I am). I can decide NOT to break laws, murder, commit adultery...etcHowever, I CAN NOT decide or choose my beliefs! Do you decide to believe in Creationism, Evolution, or God. Or is your belief simply a result of all the information you have read?If you are choosing to believe in things that you do not believe in deep down, then your only lieing to yourself. For me, I will be honest to myself, as well as others. So saying that I believe in God would be a lie. I agree that you live your life by making choices, but I disagree that believing in something is a choice/decision.AN EXPERIMENT IN MAKING A DECISION TO BELIEVE:
If believing is a decision, then decide to believe in evolution for ten minutes. When your ten minutes is up, then you can decide to believe in creationism again. Now answer the following:
1. What was it that you experienced when you believed in evolution for those ten minutes?
2. What facts and information about evolution did you believe in?
3. Why was it that you didn't believe in Creationism for those ten minutes?
4. How easy is it to choose to believe?Now can you see my dilemma?

i already understood your dilema. whether or not evolution occurs doesnt affect my faith in Jesus. I suppose that my faith/belief in god is a conclusion based on my very existence and that i dont think that luck isnt an accurate discreption of the human race or my own consciousness. in the end all that we experience on this world, maybe even emotions, are just chemical reactions its whether or not you think that God gave you that gift and that Jesus's sacrificed himself to save you from your sins.------------------
"Overspecialize and you breed in weakness" -"Major" Motoko Kusanagi

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KingPenguin:
[b]i already understood your dilema. whether or not evolution occurs doesnt affect my faith in Jesus. [/QUOTE][/b]
Ok. It shouldn't affect your faith in Jesus. The reasons why I don't believe also have nothing to do with the fact I believe in evolution. [QUOTE][b]
I suppose that my faith/belief in god is a conclusion based on my very existence and that i dont think that luck isnt an accurate discreption of the human race or my own consciousness.[/QUOTE][/b]
I wasn't implying that luck had anything to do with believing in something.

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in the end all that we experience on this world, maybe even emotions, are just chemical reactions its whether or not you think that God gave you that gift and that Jesus's sacrificed himself to save you from your sins.

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If there is a God, then I hope he would accept me into heaven based on my actions here on earth not by what I believe in.I used to believe in God when I was younger, the only problem is that I didn't feel very strong about it. When I grew older, I wasn't sure if I was a believer.It was the study of the Christian Faith that turned me away from God. Statements that people are going to hell because they don't believe in God, then I thought "Gee, do I really believe in God? If not then am I going to hell? Also, if I don't really believe, then I'm committing a sin by lieing to everyone else and portraying myself as a believer in God." I find more satisfaction in being honest with everyone and truthful to myself, then pretending I believe in something that doesn't exist.