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Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 61 of 670 (410630)
07-16-2007 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Phat
07-16-2007 12:00 PM


Re: Back to basics.
Okay.

So God is the creator and God foreknows every decision that you will make.

Is that correct?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Phat, posted 07-16-2007 12:00 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 07-16-2007 12:33 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12160
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 62 of 670 (410633)
07-16-2007 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by jar
07-16-2007 12:09 PM


Re: Back to basics.
Jar writes:

So God is the creator and God foreknows every decision that you will make.

Yes.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by jar, posted 07-16-2007 12:09 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by jar, posted 07-16-2007 12:36 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 63 of 670 (410634)
07-16-2007 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Phat
07-16-2007 12:33 PM


Re: Back to basics.
Okay.

Now imagine that I create a toy that I know will always turn right. It will NEVER turn left.

with me?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 07-16-2007 12:33 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 07-16-2007 1:07 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12160
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 64 of 670 (410639)
07-16-2007 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by jar
07-16-2007 12:36 PM


Re: Back to basics.
sure
This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by jar, posted 07-16-2007 12:36 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by jar, posted 07-16-2007 2:11 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 65 of 670 (410654)
07-16-2007 2:11 PM
Reply to: Message 64 by Phat
07-16-2007 1:07 PM


Re: Back to basics.
Next, imagine I tell that toy that unless it turns left I will destroy it.

With me still?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 07-16-2007 1:07 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 07-17-2007 12:54 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12160
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 66 of 670 (410733)
07-17-2007 12:54 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by jar
07-16-2007 2:11 PM


Re: Back to basics.
Yes. Sure...(I'm being cooperative so that you can make your point... :D But I have lots of questions!)
This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by jar, posted 07-16-2007 2:11 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by jar, posted 07-17-2007 9:33 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 67 of 670 (410782)
07-17-2007 9:33 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
07-17-2007 12:54 AM


Re: Back to basics.
How would you classify someone who creates a toy knowing that it will only turn right and then adds the condition that the toy will be destroyed if it does not turn left?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 07-17-2007 12:54 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Phat, posted 07-17-2007 3:09 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12160
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 68 of 670 (410868)
07-17-2007 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by jar
07-17-2007 9:33 AM


Re: Back to basics.
I would call them a control freak. But this is God we are talking about. He can do whatever He wants.

I suppose that He has given us a brain so that we may judge Him if we so desire.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by jar, posted 07-17-2007 9:33 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by jar, posted 07-17-2007 3:17 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 69 of 670 (410870)
07-17-2007 3:17 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Phat
07-17-2007 3:09 PM


Re: Back to basics.
I'm not sure how "Control Freak" is relevant to the question but I will try to go on.

I asked:

How would you classify someone who creates a toy knowing that it will only turn right and then adds the condition that the toy will be destroyed if it does not turn left?

The question is related to the second part, "the condition that the toy will be destroyed if it does not turn left".

How would you classify someone who creates a toy which will only turn right and then adds the condition that the toy will be destroyed if it does not turn left?

Remember you have agreed that God is the Creator and that God foreknows what a person will do.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Phat, posted 07-17-2007 3:09 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 07-17-2007 4:52 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12160
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 70 of 670 (410883)
07-17-2007 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by jar
07-17-2007 3:17 PM


Re: Back to basics.
Jar writes:

How would you classify someone who creates a toy which will only turn right and then adds the condition that the toy will be destroyed if it does not turn left?

Based on what you said above, I would assume that God wants that toy destroyed.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by jar, posted 07-17-2007 3:17 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 07-17-2007 4:57 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 71 of 670 (410885)
07-17-2007 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by Phat
07-17-2007 4:52 PM


Re: Back to basics.
Based on what you said above, I would assume that God wants that toy destroyed.

So God creates people just to destroy them.

Does that seem evil?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 07-17-2007 4:52 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 07-20-2007 5:10 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12160
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 72 of 670 (411331)
07-20-2007 5:10 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by jar
07-17-2007 4:57 PM


Re: Back to basics.
You left out the condition that this toy has the ability to establish an interface and communication with its Creator in the present moment. The programming, although set in stone, is impacted by the instructions passed through the present medium of communication between the toy and its Creator.

Whether the Bible is literally true or is merely a collection of symbolic stories, the bottom line is this:

the message is not that we have a list of instructions, rules, and regulations that we must master or do to the best of our ability. Our destiny is not based only on our own effort.

The message is that relationship with God is the ideal that is to be striven for, and everything else will fall into place.

If the paradigm was merely toymaker/toys, it would be more of a preprogrammed instructional issue.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
If God created people and foreknew that they were destined for destruction, it would perhaps be an evil thing.

My point is that there are many opportunities for that destiny to be altered before the future moment is actualized.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Among other symbolic passages, Revelation clearly shows us that there is a choice.
We have a God who was, is, and who is to come(Revelation 1:8)

we also have a villain..an evil god, if you will, known as the Beast.
This particular character once was, now is not, and yest will come.(Rev 17:8)

Apparently some of the inhabitants of the earth don't have their names written in the book of life. They are not on the guest list. Evil? It would appear so....certainly....

My belief is that everyones name is listed in the book of life and people have to willfully do some major things to get their name taken off the guest list.

In other words, I don't see God as evil at all, despite whatever He foreknows. I see Him having to take people off the guest list based entirely on what they themselves knowingly did or failed to do that they could have done.

Now...getting back to our simple toy. If the toy has no way to change the intentions of the maker, the maker will be liable (and evil) for the toys eventual destiny.

IF, however, the toy has the ability to interact with the maker, its entirely up to the toy as to what the maker eventually foresees.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by jar, posted 07-17-2007 4:57 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 73 by jar, posted 07-20-2007 9:53 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 73 of 670 (411365)
07-20-2007 9:53 AM
Reply to: Message 72 by Phat
07-20-2007 5:10 AM


up to the toy as to what the maker eventually foresees????????????
IF, however, the toy has the ability to interact with the maker, its entirely up to the toy as to what the maker eventually foresees.

That is both a nonsense statement and internally contradictory.

You have totally abolished the traditional meaning of foreseeing and made your God even more evil.

Let's step through this post.

You left out the condition that this toy has the ability to establish an interface and communication with its Creator in the present moment. The programming, although set in stone, is impacted by the instructions passed through the present medium of communication between the toy and its Creator.

What the hell does that mean or even have to do with the issue?

I create a toy. I know that the toy will always turn right, never turn left.

Now you want to add communication links, whatever they are. So the toy is asking the creator for help and guidance.

In you scenario, since he creator knows that the toy will always turn right, at each turn the toy says "which way Boss" and da Boss replies "Turn Right."

Whether the Bible is literally true or is merely a collection of symbolic stories, the bottom line is this:

the message is not that we have a list of instructions, rules, and regulations that we must master or do to the best of our ability. Our destiny is not based only on our own effort.

The message is that relationship with God is the ideal that is to be striven for, and everything else will fall into place.

If the paradigm was merely toymaker/toys, it would be more of a preprogrammed instructional issue.

I'm sorry but that makes little sense.

The message is that relationship with God is the ideal that is to be striven for, and everything else will fall into place.

How do you know it is God?

If God created people and foreknew that they were destined for destruction, it would perhaps be an evil thing.

My point is that there are many opportunities for that destiny to be altered before the future moment is actualized.

For that to be true then either God is not the creator or God does not have foreknowledge.

If God is the Creator and has foreknowledge, then God knows even before creating the person what the final result will be.

So once again...

Is God the creator?

Does God have foreknowledge?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 07-20-2007 5:10 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Phat, posted 07-20-2007 3:15 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12160
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 74 of 670 (411430)
07-20-2007 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by jar
07-20-2007 9:53 AM


Re: up to the toy as to what the maker eventually foresees????????????
Heres the thing:

God has foreknowledge.

BUT

God does not create our decisions


This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by jar, posted 07-20-2007 9:53 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 75 by jar, posted 07-20-2007 4:33 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 75 of 670 (411436)
07-20-2007 4:33 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Phat
07-20-2007 3:15 PM


Re: up to the toy as to what the maker eventually foresees????????????
Heres the thing:

God has foreknowledge.

BUT

God does not create our decisions

That is irrelevant.

You have said that God is the Creator and that God has foreknowledge.

Is that correct?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Phat, posted 07-20-2007 3:15 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Phat, posted 07-20-2007 6:50 PM jar has responded

  
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