Understanding through Discussion


Welcome! You are not logged in. [ Login ]
EvC Forum active members: 80 (8898 total)
Current session began: 
Page Loaded: 03-25-2019 6:05 PM
27 online now:
edge, Meddle, PaulK, Percy (Admin), Tangle, vimesey (6 members, 21 visitors)
Chatting now:  Chat room empty
Newest Member: WookieeB
Post Volume:
Total: 848,642 Year: 3,679/19,786 Month: 674/1,087 Week: 43/221 Day: 14/29 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Prev1
...
45
6
78
...
45NextFF
Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
Phat
Member
Posts: 12179
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 76 of 670 (411470)
07-20-2007 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by jar
07-20-2007 4:33 PM


A Creator with foreknowledge and a creation with freewill
Jar writes:

You have said that God is the Creator and that God has foreknowledge.

Is that correct?

Yes.

Edited by Phat, : title


This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by jar, posted 07-20-2007 4:33 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by jar, posted 07-20-2007 7:34 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 77 of 670 (411475)
07-20-2007 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Phat
07-20-2007 6:50 PM


Re: A Creator with foreknowledge and a creation with freewill
So God creates a toy that She knows will always turn right.

It doesn't matter whether the toy always decides on its own to turn right, the final result is that it always turns right, and God knows that even before the toy is created.

Is that right?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Phat, posted 07-20-2007 6:50 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Phat, posted 07-21-2007 5:58 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12179
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 78 of 670 (411520)
07-21-2007 5:58 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by jar
07-20-2007 7:34 PM


Re: A Creator with foreknowledge and a creation with freewill
Jar writes:

So God creates a toy that She knows will always turn right.

It doesn't matter whether the toy always decides on its own to turn right, the final result is that it always turns right, and God knows that even before the toy is created.

Is that right?

No. We are observing the interactions between this toy and God on a present level basis. We have no foreknowledge, so we, unlike God, do not see the future up until the time of final foreknowledge. In fact, the whole idea of foreknowledge of damnation (which is really what this symbolism is about) is an irrelevant topic when talking about a toy that has no freewill. All that can be asserted is that God has foreknowledge of the final direction that the toy ends up going.

It is entirely relevant as to the toys will. Thats why the idea of a toy is inappropriate when used as an allegory for humanity.

You seem to be limiting God by making darn sure that His (or Her) foreknowledge is something that we can pin as definite.

The future is being formed by each present action. The toy is not programmed to turn right at all. The toy is at best only foreknown to end up going right. At the present moment, all that God would know is that the toy will go either right or left. God has not directed the programming of the toy in any definite way. He only foreknows the end result.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by jar, posted 07-20-2007 7:34 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by jar, posted 07-21-2007 9:57 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 79 of 670 (411549)
07-21-2007 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Phat
07-21-2007 5:58 AM


Re: A Creator with foreknowledge and a creation with freewill
The future is being formed by each present action. The toy is not programmed to turn right at all. The toy is at best only foreknown to end up going right. At the present moment, all that God would know is that the toy will go either right or left. God has not directed the programming of the toy in any definite way. He only foreknows the end result.

I'm sorry but that paragraph is nothing but contradiction stacked on contradiction.

If "He only foreknows the end result" is true then "The future is being formed by each present action" is false.

If "The toy is not programmed to turn right at all" is true then "The toy is at best only foreknown to end up going right" is false.

If "At the present moment, all that God would know is that the toy will go either right or left. God has not directed the programming of the toy in any definite way" is true, then "He only foreknows the end result" is false.

This is classic "Willful Ignorance".

You make statements but refuse to see either the contradictions or the implications of what you say.

We have no foreknowledge, so we, unlike God, do not see the future up until the time of final foreknowledge.

Not only is that a nonsense statement (what the hell does "the time of final foreknowledge" mean?), what difference does it make whether we have foreknowledge? We are not the creator.

Phat you keep saying that God has foreknowledge.

Is God the Creator and does God have foreknowledge of what the person will do?

Phat, this is really simple.

If God is the Creator and God has foreknowledge and some people are damned, then God is evil.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Phat, posted 07-21-2007 5:58 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Phat, posted 07-22-2007 10:08 PM jar has responded
 Message 140 by Phat, posted 09-18-2007 9:37 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12179
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 80 of 670 (411866)
07-22-2007 10:08 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by jar
07-21-2007 9:57 AM


Re: A Creator with foreknowledge and a creation with freewill
well...we settled the argument in chat. For the record, I conceded the idea that God could have foreknowledge and that freewill could also exist.

Im not convinced of the logic yet, but it matters not.

On to other issues:

Does God care if we have relationship with Him and/or believe in Him?

I think scripture and dogma both clearly answer yes to the idea.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by jar, posted 07-21-2007 9:57 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 07-22-2007 10:18 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 81 of 670 (411869)
07-22-2007 10:18 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Phat
07-22-2007 10:08 PM


Re: A Creator with foreknowledge and a creation with freewill
For the record, I conceded the idea that God could have foreknowledge and that freewill could also exist.

Huh? Since those are not questions that have come up in this thread, I am not sure what that has to do with anything, plus it appears to be contradictory. The issue was whether or not GOD as creator had foreknowledge.

Does God care if we have relationship with Him and/or believe in Him?

Do you worry about whether or not a worm believes in you?

Exactly what kind of a relationship do you think you could have with a worm?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Phat, posted 07-22-2007 10:08 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Phat, posted 07-23-2007 2:36 AM jar has responded
 Message 112 by Phat, posted 08-25-2007 7:51 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12179
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 82 of 670 (411893)
07-23-2007 2:36 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by jar
07-22-2007 10:18 PM


Conversations with a Worm
Jar writes:

Do you worry about whether or not a worm believes in you?

Exactly what kind of a relationship do you think you could have with a worm?

The analogy lacks substance. God, IMB, knows far far more about every idiosyncrasy of the human condition than the average human (non-scientist) knows about a worm.

Even though the creator of all that is seen and unseen is virtually infinitely more complex than we are, the human is still capable of rational thought.

Additionally, suppose that I could become a worm and live among them. The reason would be to guide their species towards maximizing its potential. I would probably learn a lot about worms...and gather quite a following in their community.

Jar writes:

The (original) issue was whether or not GOD as creator had foreknowledge.

And even though I conceded the point in chat, I really can't see the logic of God having foreknowledge and knowing that some folks will end up damned means that He is evil.

Do you believe that there is a place or realm known as Hell?

Edited by Phat, : added jabberwocky!!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 07-22-2007 10:18 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 07-23-2007 9:41 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 83 of 670 (411936)
07-23-2007 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Phat
07-23-2007 2:36 AM


Re: Conversations with a Worm
The analogy lacks substance. God, IMB, knows far far more about every idiosyncrasy of the human condition than the average human (non-scientist) knows about a worm.

What does that have to do with the question. What kind of a relationship can you have with a worm?

Can you have a relationship with a worm?

And even though I conceded the point in chat, I really can't see the logic of God having foreknowledge and knowing that some folks will end up damned means that He is evil.

And as I have tried to explain, the issue is not "God having foreknowledge and knowing that some folks will end up damned" but rather God creating people for the sole purpose of damning them.

The issue is god as a creator with foreknowledge creating someone that even before the act of creation knows will be damned.

Such a god is EVIL.

Do you believe that there is a place or realm known as Hell?

Personally? No. I do not think there is a hell.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Phat, posted 07-23-2007 2:36 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 07-23-2007 10:50 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12179
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 84 of 670 (411948)
07-23-2007 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 83 by jar
07-23-2007 9:41 AM


Re: Conversations with a Worm
Jar writes:

Personally? No. I do not think there is a hell.

OK.

One of your oft quoted Biblical passages which is one of the cornerstone passages of your personal beliefs is Matthew 25:31-46.

NIV writes:

Matt 25:31-46

31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40 "The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44 "They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45 "He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

One question would be: Where do the people go who suffer the ramifications of Matthew 25:46?

Jar writes:

And as I have tried to explain, the issue is not "God having foreknowledge and knowing that some folks will end up damned" but rather God creating people for the sole purpose of damning them.

The issue is god as a creator with foreknowledge creating someone that even before the act of creation knows will be damned.

Such a god is EVIL.

The problem with attempting to construct such analogies is that we humans are linear observers. We construct a past scenario: (God is the Creator)
We dwell and note our present reality.(Lets have a discussion)
We then hypothesize a future result: (Some folk end up Sheep and some folk end up Goats)

Are you suggesting that at this present moment, God has no idea who are Sheep and who are Goats? :confused:

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by jar, posted 07-23-2007 9:41 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 07-23-2007 11:05 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 85 of 670 (411952)
07-23-2007 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Phat
07-23-2007 10:50 AM


Re: Conversations with a Worm
One question would be: Where do the people go who suffer the ramifications of Matthew 25:46?

While I don't really think hell is a subject worth spending much time worrying about, I would imagine that they would be given a chance to atone.

Are you suggesting that at this present moment, God has no idea who are Sheep and who are Goats?

That is irrelevant to the issue we were discussing. I said:

quote:
And as I have tried to explain, the issue is not "God having foreknowledge and knowing that some folks will end up damned" but rather God creating people for the sole purpose of damning them.

The issue is god as a creator with foreknowledge creating someone that even before the act of creation knows will be damned.

Such a god is EVIL.


The issue there is "what did god know before creating the person?"


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 07-23-2007 10:50 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 07-23-2007 5:55 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12179
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 86 of 670 (412082)
07-23-2007 5:55 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by jar
07-23-2007 11:05 AM


Re: Conversations with a Worm
Jar writes:

The issue there is "what did god know before creating the person?"

Well in this context, I can agree that God may not have ultimate foreknowledge. It makes sense that God would not know our decisions that have not yet been decided.

I will agree that if God did have such knowledge, He could logically be declared evil.

Now on to another belief of yours that bothers me...... ;)

This idea that God does not care if we even believe in "her" or not.

That tears up another whole chapter of dogma and throws it to the wind.

What makes you think that God does not care?

You of course know that the whole idea of God caring is very important to me.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by jar, posted 07-23-2007 11:05 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by jar, posted 07-23-2007 6:01 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 87 of 670 (412085)
07-23-2007 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Phat
07-23-2007 5:55 PM


Does it bother you if the worm does not believe you exist?
Would it bother you if a worm did not believe you existed?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 07-23-2007 5:55 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 07-23-2007 6:25 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12179
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 88 of 670 (412095)
07-23-2007 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by jar
07-23-2007 6:01 PM


Re: Does it bother you if the worm does not believe you exist?
Jar writes:

Would it bother you if a worm did not believe you existed?

Speaking as a human, no. IF, This gets us into a discussion on whether God believes that humans are special or not, however.

If I were the Creator of that worm and if it was proclaimed among the worms that I so loved them all that I sent my Son (who became a worm) to tell them all how to fulfill their destiny as worms and what it is that they should do to be the best worms that they could be, then we may argue that I as a creator may care about these worms and would never be too mighty or busy to commune with them and help them maximize their purpose.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by jar, posted 07-23-2007 6:01 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 07-23-2007 6:31 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 89 of 670 (412097)
07-23-2007 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by Phat
07-23-2007 6:25 PM


Re: Does it bother you if the worm does not believe you exist?
So as a human it would not bother you if a worm didn't believe in you.

Would you say that the distance between a worm and a human is about the same as between man and god?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 07-23-2007 6:25 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 07-23-2007 6:38 PM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12179
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 90 of 670 (412098)
07-23-2007 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 89 by jar
07-23-2007 6:31 PM


Re: Does it bother you if the worm does not believe you exist?
The distance between man and God in infinitely greater.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 07-23-2007 6:31 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by iceage, posted 07-23-2007 6:51 PM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 92 by jar, posted 07-23-2007 6:54 PM Phat has responded

  
Prev1
...
45
6
78
...
45NextFF
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2018 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.0 Beta
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2019