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Author Topic:   General Discussion Of Moderation Procedures 11.0
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 121 of 304 (411753)
07-22-2007 10:56 AM


Adminnemooseus needs to step down
He clearly has lost his perspective. I was banned for no board violation but simply because he had a fit of pique.
At the very least, he needs to have his privileges suspended for a time until he learns not to take his personal umbrage out on others.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by jar, posted 07-22-2007 11:34 AM Rrhain has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 122 of 304 (411755)
07-22-2007 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by Rrhain
07-22-2007 10:56 AM


Re: Adminnemooseus needs to step down
Get serious.
Sorry little one but we already have our quota of whining crybabies.
DaMoose is doing just fine and if you are bothered by your short suspension, tough.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Rrhain, posted 07-22-2007 10:56 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Rrhain, posted 07-22-2007 11:42 AM jar has replied

Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 123 of 304 (411756)
07-22-2007 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by jar
07-22-2007 11:34 AM


Re: Adminnemooseus needs to step down
jar, sweetie, honey, baby, pussycat, there's more to it than just that. Take a look at what has happened here.
Three people have been suspended for pointing out to the admins that they aren't doing their job. Not for any actual violations of the guidelines...just for saying that the admins have dropped the ball.
Doesn't that strike you as a bit...well...wrong?

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by jar, posted 07-22-2007 11:34 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by jar, posted 07-22-2007 11:48 AM Rrhain has not replied
 Message 125 by AdminModulous, posted 07-22-2007 11:59 AM Rrhain has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 124 of 304 (411757)
07-22-2007 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Rrhain
07-22-2007 11:42 AM


Re: Adminnemooseus needs to step down
Uh, no. Nor is that what I saw happening.
All I saw was a bunch of whining crybabies that made their point but then wouldn't let it drop and just kept on bitching. The suspensions where for their continued juvenile behavior, the same juvenile behavior you are exhibiting now.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Rrhain, posted 07-22-2007 11:42 AM Rrhain has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by crashfrog, posted 07-22-2007 2:29 PM jar has replied

AdminModulous
Administrator
Posts: 897
Joined: 03-02-2006


Message 125 of 304 (411758)
07-22-2007 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Rrhain
07-22-2007 11:42 AM


Re: Adminnemooseus needs to step down
Three people have been suspended for pointing out to the admins that they aren't doing their job. Not for any actual violations of the guidelines...just for saying that the admins have dropped the ball.
berberry was suspended after he started calling an admin childish names (rule 10).
Dan Carrol was suspended for being disrepectful to the moderators (rule 10 but 1 and 2 were also cited)
You were suspended for failure to follow moderator requests (rule 1).
Any other queries?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by Rrhain, posted 07-22-2007 11:42 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by crashfrog, posted 07-22-2007 2:20 PM AdminModulous has replied
 Message 164 by Rrhain, posted 07-23-2007 1:56 AM AdminModulous has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 126 of 304 (411780)
07-22-2007 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 125 by AdminModulous
07-22-2007 11:59 AM


Re: Adminnemooseus needs to step down
You were suspended for failure to follow moderator requests (rule 1).
Which request, specifically? If there's somewhere in this thread where Rrhain was asked to "fucking let fucking it fucking drop", I don't see it.
Plus - a request by moderators to cease discussion of moderator action in a thread that exists for the expressed purpose of discussing moderator action must be invalid, on its face. (Which is probably why none of you specifically said "Rrhain, fucking drop it.")
You can hardly expect people to follow moderater requests that have not actually been made - unless, as is obviously going on here, moderators are circling the wagons to protect their own.
I don't see why that's necessary. Each time you suspend someone for talking about this, you only look more corrupt. It's just an internet forum. Is being right worth all this?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by AdminModulous, posted 07-22-2007 11:59 AM AdminModulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by AdminModulous, posted 07-22-2007 2:40 PM crashfrog has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 127 of 304 (411781)
07-22-2007 2:29 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by jar
07-22-2007 11:48 AM


Re: Adminnemooseus needs to step down
All I saw was a bunch of whining crybabies that made their point but then wouldn't let it drop and just kept on bitching.
If you complain to administration about something they're doing wrong - like, suspending the wrong people for all the wrong reasons - and they say "ok, you made your point" and then they proceed to do exactly the same thing as they were before, then no, Jar, you haven't made your point.
Rrhain is dead-on about the behavior of admins here, and as a result, the ham-fisted Moose descended on precisely the wrong party. He's probably the worst admin I've ever seen at this board. The very few times he can bestir himself to actually take any action, he invariably takes the wrong one. I've never seen a single one of his actions result in the improvement of conversation - rather, he seems to view his sole purpose as to prevent too much talking from going on.
It's ridiculous. And then the rest of the moderators uphold his folly, out of the mistaken belief that it's better for the moderators to do the same thing than the right thing.
The suspensions where for their continued juvenile behavior, the same juvenile behavior you are exhibiting now.
It's juvenile to point out when the wrong action is taken? It's juvenile to point out that one's actions are accomplishing the exact opposite as one's stated goals?
Personally I think sycophantic, unquestioning support of whatever authority is nearest is pretty juvenile, but that's just me. And you won't see me begging for moderator action for your juvenile ad-hominems - because, of course, none would ever be forthcoming.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by jar, posted 07-22-2007 11:48 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by jar, posted 07-22-2007 2:45 PM crashfrog has not replied

AdminModulous
Administrator
Posts: 897
Joined: 03-02-2006


Message 128 of 304 (411782)
07-22-2007 2:40 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by crashfrog
07-22-2007 2:20 PM


Re: Adminnemooseus needs to step down
Which request, specifically?
Phat:STOP! Lets move on to other things.
Moose:The Berberry/NJ homosexuality/morality issue should have been its own topic somewhere else, a long time ago.
Moose: Drop it now! Maybe I'll start suspending (24 hours?) anyone and everyone who won't.
Plus - a request by moderators to cease discussion of moderator action in a thread that exists for the expressed purpose of discussing moderator action must be invalid, on its face.
It wasn't invalid when we've done it in the past. Randman seems to spring to mind. Discussion can only continue so far before everyone is just repeating themselves. As Percy said to Dan:
quote:
If there's only one outcome acceptable to you, and if you post more and more strident messages each time your request isn't granted, then it isn't really a discussion. Put slightly differently, if you'll only relent when you get what you want, and if there's nothing moderators can do or say to get you consider other alternatives or perspectives, then there's no point to the discussion.
Before your suspension we'd about gotten to the point where I was already going to raise this issue. Are you posting to this thread merely to make clear your dissatisfaction with board moderation? If so, then once that message has been communicated there's no reason to continue.
We cannot allow for moderators to get bogged down in repeating themselves in this thread. Sure: everyone is permitted to voice their concerns about an issue - which had been done. There was simply no need to continue with the discussion: everybody's finest points had been made and it was just getting bitter. Further discussion of it was requested to take place on another thread so that new issues would not get swamped by it.
You can hardly expect people to follow moderater requests that have not actually been made - unless, as is obviously going on here, moderators are circling the wagons to protect their own
Well - I suppose we can hardly expect people to follow moderator requests they never bothered reading or those requests which they felt like ignoring. For the record: I am defending the integrity of the Admin team and I do so because it seems to be under question. I cannot state the system works perfectly, or that all of the mods act exemplerary. However, I've seen much worse systems, systems where questioning the moderators was enough to earn a lifetime ban. So I feel people might at least question moderators with courtesy rather than ire.
Still - that's probably naive.
Each time you suspend someone for talking about this, you only look more corrupt. It's just an internet forum. Is being right worth all this?
Keeping the forum from degrading into a terminal flamewar is worth suspending people, even if they are suspended a little longer than might be deemed fair. After all - it's just an internet forum.
Edited by AdminModulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by crashfrog, posted 07-22-2007 2:20 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 130 by crashfrog, posted 07-22-2007 2:59 PM AdminModulous has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 129 of 304 (411784)
07-22-2007 2:45 PM
Reply to: Message 127 by crashfrog
07-22-2007 2:29 PM


Re: Adminnemooseus needs to step down
Okay.
You expressed your opinion, I expressed mine. Case closed.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by crashfrog, posted 07-22-2007 2:29 PM crashfrog has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 130 of 304 (411785)
07-22-2007 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by AdminModulous
07-22-2007 2:40 PM


Re: Adminnemooseus needs to step down
Phat:STOP! Lets move on to other things.
He did move on to other things. He made his point about NJ's ridiculous, offensive comments and he moved on - to poor moderator procedures.
Which is, you know, the subject of this thread.
Moose: Drop it now! Maybe I'll start suspending (24 hours?) anyone and everyone who won't.
And that's your idea of fair, dispassionate moderation? Moose is the worst moderator I've ever seen. Why do you guys cover for him?
We cannot allow for moderators to get bogged down in repeating themselves in this thread.
Mod - who gives a shit if you repeat yourself? Nobody gives a good goddamn how you guys are justifying your actions - because we can all see that you're all doing the wrong thing.
Nobody wants to hear more bullshit justifications for it. That's not what we want at all. We want the moderators to start doing the right thing. And to the extent that moderators involved in this discussion are providing bullshit justifications instead of amending their behavior, that means we still haven't made our point - and thus, the discussion must continue. Must be allowed to continue.
There was simply no need to continue with the discussion: everybody's finest points had been made and it was just getting bitter.
If moderators insist on doing the same wrong things, then no, our point hasn't been made. If we'd made our point, the moderators would behave differently.
For the record: I am defending the integrity of the Admin team
No shit, Mod. The question is - should you? Should you defend Moose's ham-fisted fits of pique just because he's a moderator?
Is it more important for moderators to do the right thing, or the same thing? That's our point. I don't think it's a complicated or obscure point.
So I feel people might at least question moderators with courtesy rather than ire.
When courtesy results in inaction, what is left? If the moderators only feel the need to bestir themselves when tensions rise, are we to be blamed for allowing tensions to rise when we want some action, around here?
If you want the moderators to be treated with courtesy, you have to reward courtesy. It's abundantly obvious that you all ignore it, instead.
I mean, maybe that's what you want - for people to make only moderator requests that you can safely ignore. If so then who the hell needs you? What possible use are you? Discontinue the topic approval system and you'll have completely obviated yourselves. If this is the level of moderation we can expect in the future from you and others like you, Mod, please do so at once.
The community here deserves moderation that preserves and promotes fruitful discussion and defuses tensions. The moderation you're providing - you, Modulous, and you, Percy, and most especially you, Moose - disrupts legitimate discussion, heightens tension, and produces the appearance (and likely the reality) of favoritism and personal vendettas.
How on Earth do you justify your behavior when it has those results?
Keeping the forum from degrading into a terminal flamewar is worth suspending people, even if they are suspended a little longer than might be deemed fair.
Think it through. Keeping the forum from degrading into a flamewar is a good goal. It's what we want you to do.
Is that what your actions are doing? Think it through. Do you think that you, Percy, and Moose can ever be cruel enough, capricious enough, and suspend enough people unfairly that people will stop complaining openly about you being cruel, capricious, and unfair?
In the history of despotism, has that ever worked? Think it through.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by AdminModulous, posted 07-22-2007 2:40 PM AdminModulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 139 by AdminModulous, posted 07-22-2007 3:58 PM crashfrog has replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 131 of 304 (411787)
07-22-2007 3:06 PM


Here's how I see things...
The problems in this thread (which actually trace back to the predecessor thread) began when NJ attempted to address concerns raised by Berberry. Berberry responded in Message 295:
Berberry in Message 295 writes:
If you wish to communicate with me then respond to the message I wrote you. Otherwise, shut the hell up!
Responding later, again to NJ, Berberry writes in Message 3 that he's aware he's violating the Forum Guidelines:
Berberry in Message 3 writes:
I don't care if I get suspended for saying this because you need to know it. I told you to shut the fuck up and leave me alone. I have absolutely no intention of reading one more fucking word from you until I get an apology for your comparison of gays to animals and your comparison of gay sex to rape. So go to hell.
In Message 32 Berberry says that he intends to cease participation at EvC Forum:
Berberry in Message 32 writes:
So, given the fact that those admins don't get the insult, and they think I'm thin-skinned, I think the only thing for me to do is move along.
In Message 33, evidently still intending to leave, Berberry responds to NJ like this:
Berberry in Message 33 writes:
Fuck you!
Okay, this is getting pretty bad, but Berberry says he's leaving, so just leaving it alone is probably the best course, which is what was done.
But Berberry was unable to stay away, as he writes in Message 48, and he's still mighty angry:
Berberry in Message 48 writes:
I said I was leaving and I am. But I can't let this get by without comment. There's actually MUCH, MUCH more that needs to be said to you, but I have only a minute just now. I'll be back.
quote:
Makes some people more sensitive I'm sure. Here at EvC we try to encourage dispassionate debate...
So let me get this straight: unless I'm prepared to be insulted in the most vile, disgusting and totally baseless manner imagineable by an administrator on this board, then I need to just stay the fuck away from here? Is that what you're saying?
So Berberry continues to violate the Forum Guidelines, as here in Message 51:
Berberry in Message 51 writes:
As I'm sure the stupid himself is enjoying following that thread.
And her in Message 53:
Berberry in Message 53 writes:
quote:
Yes. African-Americans, like native Americans and Europeans are all covered in dirt and grease and they are all apes. I can see an appropriate comparison.
Thank you for telling us about yourself.
Sympathetic to Berberry, but noting the inability of AdminPD, AdminModulous or myself to say anything that didn't cause Berberry greater and greater upset, and noting the expanding sphere of those he was willing to abuse, I suspended him to keep him from saying even more things that he might later regret. The suspension message reads like this:
Admin writes:
Berberry is a valued member who just needs a short vacation. We very much hope to have him back soon. --Admin
EvC Forum exists in order to provide a venue for constructive discussion on a topic that often degenerates into meaningless name-calling. The stress on being constructive in discussion extends to this very thread. Those who are upset to the point where they're not able to conform their behavior to the Forum Guidelines, which we rely on to keep discussion constructive, should not be participating here until they can. Demonizing those who disagree with you while ascribing base motives to their actions is easy to do, taking a constructive approach in the face of dissenting opinions is not. Nonetheless that's what's expected here.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by crashfrog, posted 07-22-2007 3:25 PM Admin has not replied
 Message 166 by Rrhain, posted 07-23-2007 2:29 AM Admin has not replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 132 of 304 (411788)
07-22-2007 3:16 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Rrhain
07-22-2007 10:51 AM


Re: Un. Fucking. Believable.
Rrhain, I knew you wouldn't give this up. Perhaps I should clarify a little on the admins' position.
In regard to your teacher, principal, and superintendent Chalmers' example, these folks are more concerned with keeping the instituion flow smoothly than individual unafairness. The teacher, principal, and superintendent all are trying to keep it real. After all, the bully didn't actually push or smack B. At best, he was calling him "shorty", which isn't exactly illegal on school grounds. And at best, this is a political correctness issue, which the superintendent has expressed that he thought trying to bring political correctness into our schools is a mistake.
B did not get suspended because he complained. B got a detention because he disrupted the class. After being called "shorty", he pushed away the bully and brought everyone's attention to the fact that he's been bullied, even though the teacher was trying to teach addition. While I can sympathize with the frustration on B, his disruption of the school sort of got out of hand. C's and D's detentions are also because of class disruptions.
Again, the teacher's, principal's, and superintendent's job isn't to keep everyone from using mean words toward others at the pain of detention. Their job is more concerned with teaching the math and keep the institution well. Occasionally, when the bullying gets out of hand then they will intervene. But until then, calling someone "shorty", while mean spirited in nature, isn't that great of an offense from the perspective of the school administrators.
Rrhain, for now just give it up. In the vent your frustration thread, I explained to modulous why the rest of us are so frustrated with n_j's comparisons. It's either n_j can't see the difference between consensual sex and rape or he is making a childish attempt at hinting that gay sex is as immoral and vial as rape. But that doesn't mean that the admins can interrupt the entire forum procedure to handle this childish attack.
There is little more school administrators can do when a kid is being called "shorty" than let the kids sort it out among themselves. And in the same way, there is little more the forum admins can do but proceed with everyday bussiness.
In short, Rrhain, you're a more valuable member to us having posting privileges than someone that is banned for life. You don't have to win every fight, and not every fight is fair.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Rrhain, posted 07-22-2007 10:51 AM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by crashfrog, posted 07-22-2007 3:29 PM Taz has replied
 Message 167 by Rrhain, posted 07-23-2007 2:52 AM Taz has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 133 of 304 (411789)
07-22-2007 3:25 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Admin
07-22-2007 3:06 PM


Re: Here's how I see things...
I'm clearly not getting my point across. Allow me to try again.
Sympathetic to Berberry, but noting the inability of AdminPD, AdminModulous or myself to say anything that didn't cause Berberry greater and greater upset
Did it occur to you that Berberry maybe didn't want you to say something you hadn't been saying; he wanted you to do something you hadn't been doing?
Does that make sense? The problem here isn't that you haven't hit on the right combination of words that are going to mollify us. The problem here is that you're not taking the actions that you should be taking. Instead you're doing the wrong things.
As a suggestion - concentrate less on what you could be saying differently and more on what you could be doing differently.
Demonizing those who disagree with you while ascribing base motives to their actions is easy to do, taking a constructive approach in the face of dissenting opinions is not. Nonetheless that's what's expected here.
I agree, especially with the part I've bolded. It's been a cause of great puzzlement to me as I've been watching this go on that you, Mod, and Moose so stubbornly refuse to do just that - take a constructive approach. It's like the three of you are taking turns falling all over yourselves to do the precisely wrong thing - and be defended by the other two, in turn.
Here's the essential problem with what appears to be your strategy. It's not going to be possible for the three of you to suspend enough people unfairly to convince people to stop complaining about unfair suspensions unless you suspend the entire membership of the forum.
A better strategy would be to cease unfair suspensions of people who complain about unfair suspensions - announce that you're doing so. Make the change in policy clear. That will stop those complaints, because there won't be anything to complain about. You'll have brought the vicious circle to an end.
I'd say something like "I fully expect to be suspended for this", but like you did with Dan Carrol, I suspect I'd be misinterpreted. People don't say that to indicate that they're about to violate the guidelines. People say that because they know the moderator attention their about to receive is so predictably biased against them that they can forsee the unfair action they're about to take.
But let me say this. If any of you are toying with the notion of suspending me for continuing this subject - and remember that this is the suspension of Rrhain we're talking about right now, not Berb's suspension - consider that, if you suspend me someone else will pop up to complain about how unfair that is. It happened when you suspended Berb, it happened when you suspended Dan for complaining about suspending Berb, it happened when you suspended Rrhain for complaining about suspending Dan.
I presume the concept of the "vicious circle" doesn't need to be explained.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Admin, posted 07-22-2007 3:06 PM Admin has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 134 of 304 (411790)
07-22-2007 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Taz
07-22-2007 3:16 PM


Re: Un. Fucking. Believable.
In regard to your teacher, principal, and superintendent Chalmers' example, these folks are more concerned with keeping the instituion flow smoothly than individual unafairness.
And are, like you seem to be, blind to the fact that their own actions are exacerbating the problem they're trying to solve.
Let me ask you, Taz. Do you think it's possible to unfairly suspend enough people that people will stop complaining about unfair suspensions?
When in the whole history of whenever has that ever worked? Short of suspending the entire membership except for themselves, how can their actions lead to their stated goals?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Taz, posted 07-22-2007 3:16 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Taz, posted 07-22-2007 3:42 PM crashfrog has replied

Taz
Member (Idle past 3292 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 135 of 304 (411791)
07-22-2007 3:30 PM


Guys, please let this drop.
One of the things that people often take for granted on an online forum like this is it gives the appearance of a democracy in work. Sure, we have a good thing going on here, and people are allowed to express their opinions. But every once in a while, we have to remind ourselves that this ain't a democracy. Admin is doing what he thinks is best for the life and purpose of this forum. Ok, may be I'm being too poetic, but I honestly can't see anything productive or practical resulting from this conversation/controversy if it continues.
Please honor this request and let this issue go.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by crashfrog, posted 07-22-2007 3:41 PM Taz has replied
 Message 168 by Rrhain, posted 07-23-2007 3:03 AM Taz has not replied

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