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Author Topic:   The Creationist Method
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 16 of 93 (411772)
07-22-2007 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by anastasia
07-22-2007 1:27 PM


Re: Responses to suggestions so far
anastasia writes:
Some people are willing to admit they may be wrong, and some people aren't.
That's what I was getting at when I said that the creationist method doesn't have a "loop". For many/most creationists, there is no possibility that they're wrong, so evaluation of scriptures and/or observations is redundant.
At best, the loops ought to be dotted lines.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 17 of 93 (411786)
07-22-2007 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Doddy
07-21-2007 2:24 AM


Simplified system
This applies to all faith systems where evidence cannot invalidate belief:

Faith of
Choice
|
|
|
V
Input Belief Rejected
Information ---> Black ----> Information
& Evidence Box (evil lies)
Filter
|
|
|
V
Accepted
Information
Proves Faith
(God is GOOD)
There is no testing of information, evidence or faith, it's just a pass-fail system.
Enjoy.

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we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

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Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 18 of 93 (411887)
07-23-2007 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by anastasia
07-22-2007 1:27 PM


Re: Responses to suggestions so far
anastasia writes:
Only one will go back to the drawing board when they meet with conflicting real world evidence.
If you prefer to do two charts, go for it.
Hmm, that sounds simple enough. Maybe I could have an optional pathway from "Do observations contradict scripture?" to another box with "Evaluate interpretation of scripture" or some such process.
Any suggestions?

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by anastasia, posted 07-22-2007 1:27 PM anastasia has replied

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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 19 of 93 (411960)
07-23-2007 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Doddy
07-23-2007 1:52 AM


Re: Responses to suggestions so far
Doddy writes:
Any suggestions?
Oh, I get it...maybe you are looking for a chart? Boo hoo, I don't know how to do that very quickly, or I would have.

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Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 20 of 93 (412106)
07-23-2007 7:30 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by anastasia
07-23-2007 11:59 AM


Re: Responses to suggestions so far
You could just explain modifications to mine, couldn't you?

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This message is a reply to:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 21 of 93 (412128)
07-23-2007 9:10 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Doddy
07-23-2007 7:30 PM


Re: Responses to suggestions so far
I thought I already had.
Perhaps you could be more specific?
If you just want a method for how creationists find out what is 'true' about the world, you have to, have to, have to, use the Bible as the first step. It might be the only step, which is no method at all. Or, someone may be willing to take other outside facts into consideration, as in Old Earth.

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Jaderis
Member (Idle past 3425 days)
Posts: 622
From: NY,NY
Joined: 06-16-2006


Message 22 of 93 (412135)
07-23-2007 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by anastasia
07-22-2007 12:24 PM


Re: Responses to suggestions so far
Why can't an interpretation of the Bible be falsifiable?
OK, I take it back. I suppose that if one left a supernatural entity out of the question, then a scientific hypothesis based on an interpretation of the Bible could be falsifiable. Although, of course, the "observations" would be replaced with interpretations of scripture. A little "unorthodox" but it could work.
That is why we debate about Noah's flood. It is a falsifiable concept (and has been falsified), at least, until someone comes along and says "Well Goddidit" to explain away any inconsistencies pointed out about their theory or ignore the evidence against such a thing ever having occured.
This doesn't mean that you can't believe in God or that God planned and executed the methods and laws we humans discover, just that the whole question of God and his supernatural doings are unfalsifiable and cannot be subjected to the scientific method.
No, I am not confused about terminology. Any conclusion from the Bible is already presuming facts where there are none But for a general parallel of 'technique', I am using the same lingo.
I conceded above that it is possible to test one's interpretation of the Bible against reality. The problem comes in when one tries to fit the evidence to their interpretation and ignore any of the evidence which contradicts it. That is the problem with "presuming facts where there are none." That is what the flow charts were parodying.
I am not really defending anything. It's just that most of the charts put up here were for literal, Biblical creationism, and Doddy wanted to include ID and old earth as well. IMO you can only reach those positions if you are willing to change your 'guess' about the 'facts' in the Bible.
Agreed and I see upon re-reading that you were not defending literal creationists at all.
When it comes to the Bible, there are any number of ways to read it, and all of them are 'Biblical' but not all of them are literal.
The Bible says God created in 6 days, but elsewhere it says a day is like a 1000 years. Within Genesis itself you can question whether the system of 'days' could exist before the creation of the sun. So, some people take the 6 days literally, and some don't, but as long as you don't stray from what is written, and make up something that is completely contradictory like 'God didn't create at all'...then you are 'Biblical'.
I don't remember saying anything about having a better or more real view.
Thanks for your answer.
I apologize for seeming antagonistic. I don't know what got into me or why I even took such strong issue with your post.

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Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 23 of 93 (412230)
07-24-2007 8:36 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by anastasia
07-23-2007 9:10 PM


Re: Responses to suggestions so far
anastasia writes:
Perhaps you could be more specific?
Oh, sorry.
Perhaps you could check the wording of mine? For example, do you think the alternate process is ok as "Re-evaluate interpretation of scripture"? And are the other boxes correct (as correct as possible). What sort of disclaimer or indicator should I have to show that that method is only used by some types of creationists?
Have a look:
Also, should that box link back to the big red "Bible is true" box?
Edited by Doddy, : No reason given.
Edited by Doddy, : No reason given.
Edited by Doddy, : getting image to work now. XBBCode plug-in for Firefox isn't that good.
Edited by Admin, : Reduce image width.

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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 24 of 93 (412314)
07-24-2007 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Doddy
07-24-2007 8:36 AM


Re: Responses to suggestions so far
Doddy writes:
Also, should that box link back to the big red "Bible is true" box?
The 're-evaluate interpretation' box? That one I say yes.
This is pretty good, only thing I would change is the 'perhaps' part. I see what you are getting at, but it is a little vague about the observations. It makes it sound like the observations are faulty rather than the interpretation? I suggest something like 'do observations contradict your interpretation?'...followed by 're-evaluate interpretation' and the other choices 'ignore' 'manipulate'.
As far as disclaimers, maybe you could color code. Or, do the two charts.

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Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 25 of 93 (412524)
07-25-2007 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by anastasia
07-24-2007 11:21 AM


Re: Responses to suggestions so far
How's that now? I updated it. Is the disclaimer good? What would be better?
Edited by Doddy, : questions...

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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5952 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 26 of 93 (412857)
07-26-2007 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Doddy
07-25-2007 8:45 AM


Re: Responses to suggestions so far
Doddy, I don't see the changes reflected on the page?
I forgot that you were doing this for EvoWiki. That was the reason originally why I used similar wording as what you would find with a scientific method, so that there would be a parallel which showed the faults with Creation Science. The main fault is the unwillingness to create a new 'hypothesis' when observations don't support theirs.

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Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 27 of 93 (412974)
07-27-2007 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by anastasia
07-26-2007 1:49 PM


Re: Responses to suggestions so far
anastasia writes:
Doddy, I don't see the changes reflected on the page?
I didn't change the filename, so perhaps your computer is still using the cached image rather than the true image. Usually refreshing the page fixes that, otherwise just come back in a few days.
anastasia writes:
That was the reason originally why I used similar wording as what you would find with a scientific method, so that there would be a parallel which showed the faults with Creation Science. The main fault is the unwillingness to create a new 'hypothesis' when observations don't support theirs.
Yes, I originally wanted to keep it as similar to that as possible. Possibly akin to the comic Phat posted, so I start from theory and go to observations. But creationism is much richer and more varied than that.

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Doddy
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 28 of 93 (413205)
07-29-2007 6:46 PM


Road test it
Hmm, I don't think that flow-chart works.
I roadtested it with, as an example, radiometric dating showing the old age of the earth. This observation doesn't support six-day creation. In fact, it might contradict it. But we can reinterpret the book of genesis to have a few creations or make the days longer.
However, I think the word 'perhaps' that I have preceding the scripture reintepretation process is a bit presumptious, as it, to me, already assumes a reintepretation before that process can be taken. If, for example, something very clearly contradicted the bible (pi isn't 3 exactly or a bat isn't a bird), one would have to already reinterpret the bible rather than the science in order to answer 'perhaps'. That's just the feeling I get - sorry if I'm not clear.

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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 29 of 93 (413208)
07-29-2007 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Doddy
07-19-2007 9:21 PM


I ask because there is an image on the EvoWiki page for creationism, that looks like this:
Since the chart was produced by evolutionists it is obviously a severe misrepresentation.
Why do evolutionists misrepresent?
Answer: Because they cannot refute the real position. The real Creationist "method" is observation. The appearance of design logically corresponds to Designer. Since everyone agrees that the world exhibits the appearance of design, Creationism, using the foundation of the scientific method (observation) says the appearance is caused by invisible Divine power.
We understand that Atheists cannot accept this simple and logical correspondence; hence, the existence of the Theory of Evolution.
Ray

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 30 of 93 (413211)
07-29-2007 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Cold Foreign Object
07-29-2007 7:09 PM


Cold Foreign Object
says the appearance is caused by invisible Divine power.
And how do you conclude the use of something{invisible divine power} which cannot be observed since this ,as you state, is the foundation of the scientific method.

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