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The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance

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Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 63 of 675 (410634)
07-16-2007 12:36 PM 		Reply to: Message 62 by Phat
07-16-2007 12:33 PM

Re: Back to basics.
Okay.
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Now imagine that I create a toy that I know will always turn right. It will NEVER turn left.
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with me?
​
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Phat, posted 07-16-2007 12:33 PM Phat has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 07-16-2007 1:07 PM jar has replied
  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 65 of 675 (410654)
07-16-2007 2:11 PM 		Reply to: Message 64 by Phat
07-16-2007 1:07 PM

Re: Back to basics.
Next, imagine I tell that toy that unless it turns left I will destroy it.
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With me still?
​
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by Phat, posted 07-16-2007 1:07 PM Phat has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 07-17-2007 12:54 AM jar has replied
  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 67 of 675 (410782)
07-17-2007 9:33 AM 		Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
07-17-2007 12:54 AM

Re: Back to basics.
How would you classify someone who creates a toy knowing that it will only turn right and then adds the condition that the toy will be destroyed if it does not turn left?
​
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 07-17-2007 12:54 AM Phat has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Phat, posted 07-17-2007 3:09 PM jar has replied
  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 69 of 675 (410870)
07-17-2007 3:17 PM 		Reply to: Message 68 by Phat
07-17-2007 3:09 PM

Re: Back to basics.
I'm not sure how "Control Freak" is relevant to the question but I will try to go on.
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I asked:
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How would you classify someone who creates a toy knowing that it will only turn right and then adds the condition that the toy will be destroyed if it does not turn left?
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The question is related to the second part, "the condition that the toy will be destroyed if it does not turn left".
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How would you classify someone who creates a toy which will only turn right and then adds the condition that the toy will be destroyed if it does not turn left?
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Remember you have agreed that God is the Creator and that God foreknows what a person will do.
​
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Phat, posted 07-17-2007 3:09 PM Phat has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 07-17-2007 4:52 PM jar has replied
  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 71 of 675 (410885)
07-17-2007 4:57 PM 		Reply to: Message 70 by Phat
07-17-2007 4:52 PM

Re: Back to basics.
Based on what you said above, I would assume that God wants that toy destroyed.
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So God creates people just to destroy them.
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Does that seem evil?
​
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Phat, posted 07-17-2007 4:52 PM Phat has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 07-20-2007 5:10 AM jar has replied
  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 73 of 675 (411365)
07-20-2007 9:53 AM 		Reply to: Message 72 by Phat
07-20-2007 5:10 AM

up to the toy as to what the maker eventually foresees????????????
IF, however, the toy has the ability to interact with the maker, its entirely up to the toy as to what the maker eventually foresees.
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That is both a nonsense statement and internally contradictory.
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You have totally abolished the traditional meaning of foreseeing and made your God even more evil.
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Let's step through this post.
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You left out the condition that this toy has the ability to establish an interface and communication with its Creator in the present moment. The programming, although set in stone, is impacted by the instructions passed through the present medium of communication between the toy and its Creator.
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What the hell does that mean or even have to do with the issue?
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I create a toy. I know that the toy will always turn right, never turn left.
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Now you want to add communication links, whatever they are. So the toy is asking the creator for help and guidance.
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In you scenario, since he creator knows that the toy will always turn right, at each turn the toy says "which way Boss" and da Boss replies "Turn Right."
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Whether the Bible is literally true or is merely a collection of symbolic stories, the bottom line is this:
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the message is not that we have a list of instructions, rules, and regulations that we must master or do to the best of our ability. Our destiny is not based only on our own effort.
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The message is that relationship with God is the ideal that is to be striven for, and everything else will fall into place.
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If the paradigm was merely toymaker/toys, it would be more of a preprogrammed instructional issue.
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I'm sorry but that makes little sense.
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The message is that relationship with God is the ideal that is to be striven for, and everything else will fall into place.
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How do you know it is God?
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If God created people and foreknew that they were destined for destruction, it would perhaps be an evil thing.
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My point is that there are many opportunities for that destiny to be altered before the future moment is actualized.
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For that to be true then either God is not the creator or God does not have foreknowledge.
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If God is the Creator and has foreknowledge, then God knows even before creating the person what the final result will be.
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So once again...
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Is God the creator?
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Does God have foreknowledge?
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by Phat, posted 07-20-2007 5:10 AM Phat has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Phat, posted 07-20-2007 3:15 PM jar has replied
  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 75 of 675 (411436)
07-20-2007 4:33 PM 		Reply to: Message 74 by Phat
07-20-2007 3:15 PM

Re: up to the toy as to what the maker eventually foresees????????????
Heres the thing:
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God has foreknowledge.
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BUT
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God does not create our decisions
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That is irrelevant.
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You have said that God is the Creator and that God has foreknowledge.
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Is that correct?
​
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Phat, posted 07-20-2007 3:15 PM Phat has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Phat, posted 07-20-2007 6:50 PM jar has replied
  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 77 of 675 (411475)
07-20-2007 7:34 PM 		Reply to: Message 76 by Phat
07-20-2007 6:50 PM

Re: A Creator with foreknowledge and a creation with freewill
So God creates a toy that She knows will always turn right.
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It doesn't matter whether the toy always decides on its own to turn right, the final result is that it always turns right, and God knows that even before the toy is created.
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Is that right?
​
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Phat, posted 07-20-2007 6:50 PM Phat has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Phat, posted 07-21-2007 5:58 AM jar has replied
  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 79 of 675 (411549)
07-21-2007 9:57 AM 		Reply to: Message 78 by Phat
07-21-2007 5:58 AM

Re: A Creator with foreknowledge and a creation with freewill
The future is being formed by each present action. The toy is not programmed to turn right at all. The toy is at best only foreknown to end up going right. At the present moment, all that God would know is that the toy will go either right or left. God has not directed the programming of the toy in any definite way. He only foreknows the end result.
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I'm sorry but that paragraph is nothing but contradiction stacked on contradiction.
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If "He only foreknows the end result" is true then "The future is being formed by each present action" is false.
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If "The toy is not programmed to turn right at all" is true then "The toy is at best only foreknown to end up going right" is false.
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If "At the present moment, all that God would know is that the toy will go either right or left. God has not directed the programming of the toy in any definite way" is true, then "He only foreknows the end result" is false.
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This is classic "Willful Ignorance".
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You make statements but refuse to see either the contradictions or the implications of what you say.
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We have no foreknowledge, so we, unlike God, do not see the future up until the time of final foreknowledge.
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Not only is that a nonsense statement (what the hell does "the time of final foreknowledge" mean?), what difference does it make whether we have foreknowledge? We are not the creator.
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Phat you keep saying that God has foreknowledge.
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Is God the Creator and does God have foreknowledge of what the person will do?
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Phat, this is really simple.
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If God is the Creator and God has foreknowledge and some people are damned, then God is evil.
​
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Phat, posted 07-21-2007 5:58 AM Phat has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Phat, posted 07-22-2007 10:08 PM jar has replied
 Message 140 by Phat, posted 09-18-2007 9:37 PM jar has replied
  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 81 of 675 (411869)
07-22-2007 10:18 PM 		Reply to: Message 80 by Phat
07-22-2007 10:08 PM

Re: A Creator with foreknowledge and a creation with freewill
For the record, I conceded the idea that God could have foreknowledge and that freewill could also exist.
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Huh? Since those are not questions that have come up in this thread, I am not sure what that has to do with anything, plus it appears to be contradictory. The issue was whether or not GOD as creator had foreknowledge.
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Does God care if we have relationship with Him and/or believe in Him?
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Do you worry about whether or not a worm believes in you?
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Exactly what kind of a relationship do you think you could have with a worm?
​
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Phat, posted 07-22-2007 10:08 PM Phat has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Phat, posted 07-23-2007 2:36 AM jar has replied
 Message 112 by Phat, posted 08-25-2007 7:51 PM jar has replied
  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 83 of 675 (411936)
07-23-2007 9:41 AM 		Reply to: Message 82 by Phat
07-23-2007 2:36 AM

Re: Conversations with a Worm
The analogy lacks substance. God, IMB, knows far far more about every idiosyncrasy of the human condition than the average human (non-scientist) knows about a worm.
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What does that have to do with the question. What kind of a relationship can you have with a worm?
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Can you have a relationship with a worm?
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And even though I conceded the point in chat, I really can't see the logic of God having foreknowledge and knowing that some folks will end up damned means that He is evil.
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And as I have tried to explain, the issue is not "God having foreknowledge and knowing that some folks will end up damned" but rather God creating people for the sole purpose of damning them.
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The issue is god as a creator with foreknowledge creating someone that even before the act of creation knows will be damned.
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Such a god is EVIL.
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Do you believe that there is a place or realm known as Hell?
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Personally? No. I do not think there is a hell.
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Phat, posted 07-23-2007 2:36 AM Phat has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 07-23-2007 10:50 AM jar has replied
  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 85 of 675 (411952)
07-23-2007 11:05 AM 		Reply to: Message 84 by Phat
07-23-2007 10:50 AM

Re: Conversations with a Worm
One question would be: Where do the people go who suffer the ramifications of Matthew 25:46?
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While I don't really think hell is a subject worth spending much time worrying about, I would imagine that they would be given a chance to atone.
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Are you suggesting that at this present moment, God has no idea who are Sheep and who are Goats?
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That is irrelevant to the issue we were discussing. I said:
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quote:
And as I have tried to explain, the issue is not "God having foreknowledge and knowing that some folks will end up damned" but rather God creating people for the sole purpose of damning them.
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The issue is god as a creator with foreknowledge creating someone that even before the act of creation knows will be damned.
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Such a god is EVIL.
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The issue there is "what did god know before creating the person?"
​
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Phat, posted 07-23-2007 10:50 AM Phat has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 07-23-2007 5:55 PM jar has replied
  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 87 of 675 (412085)
07-23-2007 6:01 PM 		Reply to: Message 86 by Phat
07-23-2007 5:55 PM

Does it bother you if the worm does not believe you exist?
Would it bother you if a worm did not believe you existed?
​
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Phat, posted 07-23-2007 5:55 PM Phat has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 07-23-2007 6:25 PM jar has replied
  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 89 of 675 (412097)
07-23-2007 6:31 PM 		Reply to: Message 88 by Phat
07-23-2007 6:25 PM

Re: Does it bother you if the worm does not believe you exist?
So as a human it would not bother you if a worm didn't believe in you.
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Would you say that the distance between a worm and a human is about the same as between man and god?
​
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Phat, posted 07-23-2007 6:25 PM Phat has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 07-23-2007 6:38 PM jar has replied
  
jar
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004

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Message 92 of 675 (412100)
07-23-2007 6:54 PM 		Reply to: Message 90 by Phat
07-23-2007 6:38 PM

Re: Does it bother you if the worm does not believe you exist?
Okay.
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So if you do not worry whether or not a worm believes you exist, and that in reality, the separation between God and Man is far greater than between man and worm, why would God care whether or not man believed in Her?
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Phat you confuse questions.
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Question: "would God care if someone believes in Her?"
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Answer: "Why? Do you worry if some single celled critter believes in you?"
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BUT, that tells us nothing about whether or not God believes in Man.
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Are you aware that worms exist?
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Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Phat, posted 07-23-2007 6:38 PM Phat has replied
Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Phat, posted 07-24-2007 3:25 AM jar has replied
  
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