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Author Topic:   Was there a worldwide flood?
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 586 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 121 of 372 (411963)
07-23-2007 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Dr Adequate
07-23-2007 11:37 AM


Re: Floating Mats? Insects?
"And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life."

So, pairs of all the animals that ever existed were on the ark. All the creatures that we find fossilized in the "flood deposits" were on the ark. Multiply my food and water estimates by 100 then. 720,000 tons of cargo.

There's not enough space in the ark for the animals, let alone the cargo.

You've been taught to accept a myth as the truth, Repzion, I'm sorry to say.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-23-2007 11:37 AM Dr Adequate has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-23-2007 3:07 PM bluegenes has responded

Nuggin
Member (Idle past 602 days)
Posts: 2965
From: Los Angeles, CA USA
Joined: 08-09-2005


Message 122 of 372 (411995)
07-23-2007 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Repzion
07-22-2007 5:58 PM


Not to start a whole other line of argument but...
It was Noah, his wife and his kids and their wives...

The BEST you could hope for in the next generation is 1st cousin marriage. Everyone has Noah as a father or a grandfather. How much inbreeding are we talking about here.

And, how many generations has it been since then? How do we get Nigerians, Aboriginese, Japanese, Swedes, Egyptians, Navajo, etc etc etc in so few generations?

The harder you look at the Flood myth, the less stuff makes sense - because it's a myth. It's a story used to impart moralistic information not historical information.


This message is a reply to:
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dwise1
Member
Posts: 3405
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 8.6


Message 123 of 372 (412005)
07-23-2007 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by Dr Adequate
07-23-2007 11:37 AM


Re: Floating Mats? Insects?
Which raises yet another problem, courtesy of Dr. Henry Morris' human population model (exerpt from my "Bunny Blunder" page at http://members.aol.com/dwise1/cre_ev/bunny.html):
quote:
One immediately apparent error in Morris' 1974 reasoning is that he forgot the Flood! (how could he, the Father of Modern Flood Geology?) The present human population did not start with some un-named couple recently evicted from an un-named Garden, but rather with the 8 un-named passengers debarking from an un-named Ark at the end of a year-long voyage through an un-named world-wide Flood (isn't this game of "Hide the Bible" fun?). However, working with the ICR's dates for the Creation and Flood (c 8000 BCE and 4600 BCE), and applying Morris' human population model, James S. Monroe discovered some even more interesting "facts" about the antediluvian world. According to the ICR's premises, the world population at the time of the Flood would have been at least 7.2946 E+19 people, or 13,000 people per square foot over the entire earth's surface. And if the flood only happened 4000 years ago as other ICR works suggest, then the mass of people on earth just before the Flood would have exceeded the mass of the earth itself.

With such a huge ante-diluvial human population, where are all the human fossils? Human fossils should be mixed in with all those other animals that perished in the Flood. So where are the the human fossils in those "Fossil 'graveyards'" mentioned in Repzion's sources (first link, #4, and second link, #32)?


This message is a reply to:
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Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 16093
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 9.1


Message 124 of 372 (412011)
07-23-2007 3:07 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by bluegenes
07-23-2007 12:10 PM


Re: Floating Mats? Insects?
All the creatures that we find fossilized in the "flood deposits" were on the ark. Multiply my food and water estimates by 100 then. 720,000 tons of cargo.

To be fair, the "99% of all species are dead" claim is not based on counting extinct species known from the fossil record against known living species, but on more indirect reasoning.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by bluegenes, posted 07-23-2007 12:10 PM bluegenes has responded

Replies to this message:
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bluegenes
Member (Idle past 586 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 125 of 372 (412109)
07-23-2007 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Dr Adequate
07-23-2007 3:07 PM


Re: Floating Mats? Insects?
It's all very aproximate, anyway. My one litre of water per week per animal is very generous to the creationist side. Actually, young Rep needs to be pointed towards more up to date creationist stuff which will only have "kinds" on the ark, then an enormous amount of speeded up evolution in the last 5000 tears. I assume that the Ark problem is the main reason why AiG and others are pushing the idea of "kinds".

However, my point about lots of the herbivores requiring living plants to feed off is a good one. The Ark requires a large plantation on board, as well as a huge tank of fresh water.

The silly thing about all this is that the event requires magic from God anyway, so of course, he can solve all the problems by magic, which he has to do anyway after the flood, because a lot of the animals move so slowly that some kind of magic redistribution is necessary. I reckon that South American snails and sloths would just about be arriving on their home continent now, if there were land bridges available, which there aren't.

The text you quoted makes things very difficult for fludologists, on its own.

I sometimes wonder what we're doing, having arguments here that were already won in the nineteenth century. It's 2007. We're in a time warp!


This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Dr Adequate, posted 07-23-2007 3:07 PM Dr Adequate has not yet responded

EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 126 of 372 (416749)
08-17-2007 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by RAZD
07-18-2007 8:40 PM


Re: here we go again ...
I think this illustrates the plagerisms in the old testament pretty well.

http://www.noahs-ark-flood.com/parallels.htm

The texts in question often predate any biblical texts, for example the Gilgamesh epic was recorded no later than the 3rd millennium BC, significantly predating any copies of the genesis version.

The simple 'reason' for the unsubstantiated claim of 200+ global stories of the deluge is simple cultural theft.


Idiots speak louder than words

(yes its supposed to be ironical... twice)


This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by RAZD, posted 07-18-2007 8:40 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

EighteenDelta
Inactive Member


Message 127 of 372 (416755)
08-17-2007 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by bluegenes
07-22-2007 9:25 PM


I think you grossly under estimate the amount of food and fodder, not to mention water that would be required. I think the history of military logistics proves that point fairly well. Alexander the Great and the Logistics of the Macedonian Army is an excellent resource in this area. For example a horse eats a mixture of 20 kg or feed and fodder a day with about 10 kg of water. I think your figures are under by orders of magnitude even. This is even assuming one could store such quantities of required resources. Ask any farmer what happens to wet hay after a matter of weeks.


Idiots speak louder than words

(yes its supposed to be ironical... twice)


This message is a reply to:
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Refpunk
Member (Idle past 4162 days)
Posts: 60
Joined: 08-17-2007


Message 128 of 372 (416881)
08-18-2007 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Repzion
07-18-2007 2:59 PM


Refpunk's post was a lengthy cut-n-paste from another website that he provided without attribution and no introductory words of his own. A link to the original site appears below.

Flood Legends from Around the World

Edited by Admin, : Replace lengthy cut-n-paste with link to the original source.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Repzion, posted 07-18-2007 2:59 PM Repzion has not yet responded

  
Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1707 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 129 of 372 (416936)
08-18-2007 5:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Repzion
07-18-2007 2:59 PM


in a word...
Repzion:
Was there a worldwide flood?

No.

___

Edited by Archer Opterix, : html.


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Repzion, posted 07-18-2007 2:59 PM Repzion has not yet responded

the-eliot-one
Junior Member (Idle past 4171 days)
Posts: 2
From: England
Joined: 08-23-2007


Message 130 of 372 (417703)
08-23-2007 9:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Repzion
07-18-2007 2:59 PM


The bible flood could not have happened because there are absolutley no complete gaps in civilizations accounting reccords for any of the feesible timing of the flood Egypt Numidia both sit right through the time the flood would have had to have occured how on earth could they have been totally wiped out because of the sin of man.


"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Mahatma Gandhi

"Never argue with an idiot, they'll only bring you down to their level and then beat you on experience"-unknown

Goodwins law- "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')

"We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Repzion, posted 07-18-2007 2:59 PM Repzion has not yet responded

  
Refpunk
Member (Idle past 4162 days)
Posts: 60
Joined: 08-17-2007


Message 131 of 372 (418268)
08-27-2007 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Repzion
07-18-2007 2:59 PM


Yet I wonder why there ar exactly ZERO accounts of ancient peoples describing their ancestors being cavemen. Why do you think that is?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Repzion, posted 07-18-2007 2:59 PM Repzion has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by jar, posted 08-27-2007 10:10 AM Refpunk has not yet responded
 Message 134 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-27-2007 10:54 AM Refpunk has responded
 Message 161 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-29-2007 2:46 AM Refpunk has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30936
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 132 of 372 (418272)
08-27-2007 10:10 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Refpunk
08-27-2007 9:44 AM


On irrelevant strawmen
Yet I wonder why there ar exactly ZERO accounts of ancient peoples describing their ancestors being cavemen. Why do you think that is?

Even though that is a totally irrelevant question when considering the Great Wetting that Never Happened, it is reasonable that no such tales exist.

Floods are a pretty common occurrence, they happen repeatedly and continue happening even today. Any "Cavemen" ancestors (and caveman i just a silly name suitable only for cartoons) lived many tens of thousands of years before modern language and writing methods were developed. The reason we don't have such tales is just time and the fact that humans evolved and went on to write stories about more exciting things.

The fact is, there never was a worldwide flood. It just plain never happened.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
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Chiroptera
Member
Posts: 6531
From: Oklahoma
Joined: 09-28-2003


Message 133 of 372 (418275)
08-27-2007 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Repzion
07-18-2007 2:59 PM


Creationists will disagree with you.
But, you know, we don’t need to see the Flood with our own eyes to believe it happened.

According to creationists, we do need to see it with our own eyes. Creationists believe that unless we actually witness an event ourselves, we are perfectly free to believe anything that we want.

-

We have plenty of historical and geological evidence.

According to creationists, interpretations of evidence depend on assumptions based on one's worldview, and so one can assume whatever one wants in order to get the interpretation that one desires.


I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! -- Ned Flanders
This message is a reply to:
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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 1707 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 134 of 372 (418292)
08-27-2007 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Refpunk
08-27-2007 9:44 AM


'Out of Bedrock' theory
Refpunk:
Yet I wonder why there ar exactly ZERO accounts of ancient peoples describing their ancestors being cavemen. Why do you think that is?

Because Fred and Wilma killed all the witnesses when Pebbles became an unwed mitochondrial mother.


Archer

All species are transitional.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Refpunk, posted 08-27-2007 9:44 AM Refpunk has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Refpunk, posted 08-28-2007 8:45 AM Archer Opteryx has responded

Refpunk
Member (Idle past 4162 days)
Posts: 60
Joined: 08-17-2007


Message 135 of 372 (418450)
08-28-2007 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 134 by Archer Opteryx
08-27-2007 10:54 AM


Re: 'Out of Bedrock' theory
That's because there were no neanderthals or ape-men. The theory of evolution is so absurd that it's an emparrassment to people who call themselves educated.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-27-2007 10:54 AM Archer Opteryx has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by Rahvin, posted 08-28-2007 9:39 AM Refpunk has responded
 Message 138 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-28-2007 11:21 AM Refpunk has not yet responded
 Message 165 by nator, posted 08-29-2007 7:18 PM Refpunk has not yet responded
 Message 188 by AdminPhat, posted 09-02-2007 7:31 AM Refpunk has not yet responded

  
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