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Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4204 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 91 of 675 (412099)
07-23-2007 6:51 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Thugpreacha
07-23-2007 6:38 PM


Re: Does it bother you if the worm does not believe you exist?
Phat writes:

The distance between man and God in infinitely greater.

Precisely the point! If it would not bother you if a worm believed in you or not - or at least you could forgive a worm of not being aware of higher levels of consciousness why would a God (who is infinitely greater) punish a person for merely not being aware of God's reality? Especially given incomplete and even conflicting physical information.

Or even worse imagine you were able to create an artificial intelligence program and that intelligence did not exalt and worship you (maybe because of some invalid parameters settings) would you be offended and "judge" this creation of yours to suffer eternal damnation.

Edited by iceage, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 31509
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 92 of 675 (412100)
07-23-2007 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 90 by Thugpreacha
07-23-2007 6:38 PM


Re: Does it bother you if the worm does not believe you exist?
Okay.

So if you do not worry whether or not a worm believes you exist, and that in reality, the separation between God and Man is far greater than between man and worm, why would God care whether or not man believed in Her?

Phat you confuse questions.

Question: "would God care if someone believes in Her?"

Answer: "Why? Do you worry if some single celled critter believes in you?"

BUT, that tells us nothing about whether or not God believes in Man.

Are you aware that worms exist?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-23-2007 6:38 PM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-24-2007 3:25 AM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13043
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 93 of 675 (412187)
07-24-2007 3:25 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by jar
07-23-2007 6:54 PM


Re: Does it bother you if the worm does not believe you exist?
Jar writes:

Are you aware that worms exist?


Of course.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by jar, posted 07-23-2007 6:54 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 07-24-2007 9:28 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
AdminSchraf
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 675 (412244)
07-24-2007 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by iceage
07-23-2007 6:51 PM


OOPS!
Iceage, remember this is a Great Debate thread between Jar and Phat.

You no suppost to post.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by iceage, posted 07-23-2007 6:51 PM iceage has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31509
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 95 of 675 (412260)
07-24-2007 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Thugpreacha
07-24-2007 3:25 AM


Re: Does it bother you if the worm does not believe you exist?
Okay, so you are aware that worms exist.

You also say that the gulf between GOD and man is infinitely greater than the gulf between man and worm.

Now if, as you affirm, you would not get upset if the worm did not believe in you, why would a GOD, the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, get upset if someone did not believe in Her?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-24-2007 3:25 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-24-2007 11:36 AM jar has responded
 Message 98 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-25-2007 3:26 AM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13043
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 96 of 675 (412317)
07-24-2007 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by jar
07-24-2007 9:28 AM


Re: Does it bother you if the worm does not believe you exist?
Jar writes:

if, as you affirm, you would not get upset if the worm did not believe in you, why would a GOD, the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, get upset if someone did not believe in Her?

I don't see God getting upset if all honest recourse is taken by the human in question. A God of toughlove would only want people to have a communion with Him/Her only for their own good...not for Gods Ego.

As you have inferred before, the people who have read the manual will be expected to conform to a stricter standard. Humans have reasoning, conscience, and the ability to be responsible for their lives. (its unknown what worms are capable of)

So the question is: All things considered, do humans need a relationship with God in order to manifest their destiny?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 07-24-2007 9:28 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by jar, posted 07-24-2007 11:49 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31509
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 97 of 675 (412321)
07-24-2007 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Thugpreacha
07-24-2007 11:36 AM


Re: Does it bother you if the worm does not believe you exist?
I don't see God getting upset if all honest recourse is taken by the human in question. A God of toughlove would only want people to have a communion with Him/Her only for their own good...not for Gods Ego.

Huh?

What does that have to do with "Now if, as you affirm, you would not get upset if the worm did not believe in you, why would a GOD, the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, get upset if someone did not believe in Her?"

All we are discussing now is whether or not God would care if someone did not believe in God.

And yet again, what does ...

As you have inferred before, the people who have read the manual will be expected to conform to a stricter standard. Humans have reasoning, conscience, and the ability to be responsible for their lives. (its unknown what worms are capable of)

have to do with the issue?

So the question is: All things considered, do humans need a relationship with God in order to manifest their destiny?

No!

And yet again, what does that have to do with the specific question of whether or not GOD cares if anyone believes in Her?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-24-2007 11:36 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13043
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 98 of 675 (412504)
07-25-2007 3:26 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by jar
07-24-2007 9:28 AM


Snake Oil comes in many flavors
Jar writes:

Now if, as you affirm, you would not get upset if the worm did not believe in you, why would a GOD, the creator of all that is, seen and unseen, get upset if someone did not believe in Her?

The issue is not that God isso insecure as to need us to believe in her. The issue is that God knows that if we believe in the alternative(s) it will bode ill for us.

A Father may not really care if their kid does not think of them as the greatest role model and Dad of the year, but that same Father would be legitimately concerned if their prodigal began to believe that the local drug dealer, fast talking used car salesman/employer or even the huckster preacher captured their sons interest and that the lad was being misled down primrose paths of doom.

I'll state my belief again: God wants us to have a relationship with Him. He wants us to realize that we are not the captain of our ship nor the master of our soul. Further, there are many charlatans that would love to trick us into allowing them to control our destiny as well.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by jar, posted 07-24-2007 9:28 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by jar, posted 07-25-2007 9:26 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31509
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 99 of 675 (412535)
07-25-2007 9:26 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by Thugpreacha
07-25-2007 3:26 AM


Re: Snake Oil comes in many flavors
The issue is not that God isso insecure as to need us to believe in her.

Only if you play moving goal posts. In Message 86 you said:

Phat writes:

Now on to another belief of yours that bothers me......

This idea that God does not care if we even believe in "her" or not.

That tears up another whole chapter of dogma and throws it to the wind.

so the issue most certainly is whether or not God would require man to believe in Her.

The issue is that God knows that if we believe in the alternative(s) it will bode ill for us.

Aren't you creating a false dichotomy there Phat? Are those the only choices? What other choices? Why would those choices be bad?

A Father may not really care if their kid does not think of them as the greatest role model and Dad of the year, but that same Father would be legitimately concerned if their prodigal began to believe that the local drug dealer, fast talking used car salesman/employer or even the huckster preacher captured their sons interest and that the lad was being misled down primrose paths of doom.

What does that have to do with the issue? You are now bringing up behaviors that are totally unrelated to the question and also simply irrelevant.

If that child believed that his father was the greatest dad in the world and still followed the behavior you mentioned, would it be any different?

I'll state my belief again: God wants us to have a relationship with Him.

How much of a relationship can you have with a worm?

He wants us to realize that we are not the captain of our ship nor the master of our soul.

Would you want the worm to realize that it lives only at your suffrage?

Further, there are many charlatans that would love to trick us into allowing them to control our destiny as well.

Of course. They are often called Pastor or Brother or Reverend or Bishop.

But in the end, it can only be you that controls your destiny, there just aren't many other choices. You can control it yourself, turn it over to some other human or turn it over to fantasy. But it is still you that makes those decisions.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-25-2007 3:26 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-25-2007 10:22 AM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13043
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 100 of 675 (412548)
07-25-2007 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by jar
07-25-2007 9:26 AM


Re: Snake Oil comes in many flavors
Jar writes:

How much of a relationship can you have with a worm?

How much relationship would I even want to have with a darn worm? But of course I am a selfish human, rather than an omnipotent altruistic God....who may well desire to commune with worms!

Jar writes:

Would you want the worm to realize that it lives only at your suffrage?

Do you mean would I want the worm to be dependent on me? Perhaps only in that were I God, the worm would have a much better destiny by being in communion with the Creator of all that is seen and unseen rather than just being some little slithering critter breaking up clumps of dirt!

You seem to always bring up the Bling Bling Pimp Daddy argument about a God who gets bent out of shape because we diss Him. I maintain that God is more than the local Don. God is sustenance itself. The whole concept of communion with a Creator is in my opinion a beneficial thing for any creature great or small.

Jar writes:

But in the end, it can only be you that controls your destiny, there just aren't many other choices. You can control it yourself, turn it over to some other human or turn it over to fantasy. But it is still you that makes those decisions.

And in that regard, I can see your point that if a creature decided not to have communion with God, it would not be right for God to get bent out of shape and banish that creature to eternal nothingness.

If God offers us a decision, it only makes sense that He honor all possible choices that we then choose to make. In that regard, I can see an argument against the concept of Hell.

On the other hand, if communion is the only true source of life, it would make sense for all creatures to freely choose that choice. Its like all the creatures in the desert choosing to drink water. Just because that is their only best option does not make it an unfair ultimatum.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by jar, posted 07-25-2007 9:26 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by jar, posted 07-25-2007 10:31 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31509
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 101 of 675 (412550)
07-25-2007 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Thugpreacha
07-25-2007 10:22 AM


Relationships-Communion and other jabberwocky.
How much relationship would I even want to have with a darn worm? But of course I am a selfish human, rather than an omnipotent altruistic God....who may well desire to commune with worms!

It is not a matter of what someone wants, as much as a matter of what is possible.

How much of a relationship can you have with a worm?


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-25-2007 10:22 AM Thugpreacha has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 102 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-26-2007 5:46 AM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13043
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 102 of 675 (412746)
07-26-2007 5:46 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by jar
07-25-2007 10:31 AM


Re: Relationships-Communion and other jabberwocky.
Jar writes:

It is not a matter of what someone wants, as much as a matter of what is possible.

How much of a relationship can you have with a worm?

Very little if any.
I can say last rites over him before I stick him on the end of a fish hook! :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by jar, posted 07-25-2007 10:31 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by jar, posted 07-26-2007 9:20 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31509
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 103 of 675 (412779)
07-26-2007 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Thugpreacha
07-26-2007 5:46 AM


Re: Relationships-Communion and other jabberwocky.
Yet you have claimed that the gulf between GOD and man is infinitely greater than between man and worm.

It is simply impossible for a worm to see as you do, to think as you do, to experience what you experience. It is also impossible for you to so limit yourself that you could see as the worm sees, think as a worm, experience as a worm.

If though, you could do that, you would no longer be a man. To communion, to have a relationship, there must be something fairly close to parity.

A man can have a relationship with a dog, the dog can obey the man, perhaps even love the man, but the relationship will always be limited.

As the gulf between two lifeforms increases, the possibility of communion or relationships becomes increasingly unlikely.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Thugpreacha, posted 07-26-2007 5:46 AM Thugpreacha has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 31509
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


Message 104 of 675 (412956)
07-27-2007 12:17 AM


some thoughts on relationships
To have a relationship, a communion, there needs to be something approximating parity between the participants. A man cannot have a relationship with a worm, or a stone, or grass.

GOD, if GOD exists, and if GOD really is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen; GOD, if GOD actually exists and is the creator of this universe we inhabit, is so far different from a mere human that any relationship is impossible.

There are only two ways such a relationship can happen.

One is if GOD is somewhat comparable to man. That means creating a God that is "human", no longer that different from you or me.

The other is to imagine man as God.

To have a relationship with God is to diminish God or glorify Man.

So is there any possible relationship?

I think there was, and that we have a record of that relationship, but that it is in the past.

Once, GOD became man.

Not God disguised as man, not god in the form of man, but man.

That record is the history of Jesus.

Jesus, during his lifetime here on earth, was man, not divine, not God, but man.

As a man, Jesus was able to have relationship, communion, with mankind. Before Jesus birth, after the Ascension, such relationships were not and are not possible.

So what kind of a connection can we have with GOD today?

Well, not a communion, or even much of a relationship. But we can learn from what has been taught. Jesus showed us what is possible. He taught us what the real capabilities of "just a man" can be.

We have those histories, those examples, and we have the instructions that Jesus brought us on how to live a life.

We can, like a child worshiping a hero, try to emulate the best example we have.

It all comes down though to what WE do.

Life is ours to live.

The mistakes are ours to make, and we will make mistakes. The goal is to always try to make NEW mistakes, to learn from all those OLD mistakes and to try not to repeat them.

We can struggle with our conscience, but it is OUR conscience, not some outside being.

Once, GOD became man. What a magnificent thing to do.

But we live today. And today, we must work with what we have. To claim some relationship with GOD is to diminish God or Glorify Man.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Thugpreacha, posted 08-01-2007 9:51 AM jar has responded

  
Thugpreacha
Member
Posts: 13043
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 105 of 675 (413763)
08-01-2007 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 104 by jar
07-27-2007 12:17 AM


Re: some thoughts on relationships
Jar writes:

GOD, if GOD exists, and if GOD really is the creator of all that is, seen and unseen; GOD, if GOD actually exists and is the creator of this universe we inhabit, is so far different from a mere human that any relationship is impossible.

I can totally agree on this one. Scripture supports it as well. So does The Westminster Confession: I. The distance between God and the creature is so great, that although reasonable creatures do owe obedience unto him as their Creator, yet they could never have any fruition of him, as their blessedness and reward, but by some voluntary condescension on God's part, which he hath been pleased to express by way of covenant.

Jar writes:

Jesus, during his lifetime here on earth, was man, not divine, not God, but man.

As a man, Jesus was able to have relationship, communion, with mankind. Before Jesus birth, after the Ascension, such relationships were not and are not possible.

So you are saying that we cannot have the same type of a communion/prayer relationship with God that Jesus had?

Jar writes:

Jesus showed us what is possible. He taught us what the real capabilities of "just a man" can be.(...)It all comes down though to what WE do.

I would say that Jesus taught us how to commune with God. He was God incarnate, which means that He was not God the Father but was fully and legally Gods representation among us "worms."

Jar writes:

Life is ours to live.

But is it irrelevant to live for God? What did Paul mean when he said:
NIV writes:

Gal 2:19-21--I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

What did the authors of The Westminster Confession(1646) mean when they said: V. We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the Church to an high and reverent esteem of the holy Scripture; and the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man's salvation, the many other incomparable excellencies, and the entire perfection thereof, are arguments whereby it doth abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God; yet, notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit, bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.

VI. The whole counsel of God, concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith, and life, is either expressly set down in Scripture, or by good and necessary consequence may be deduced from Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelations of the Spirit, or traditions of men.

Jar writes:

We can struggle with our conscience, but it is OUR conscience, not some outside being.

I agree with you in that I believe that We become the decisions that we make. I don't believe that any sort of evil spirit or presence can make me sin. Paul seemed to think that it was some sort of a spiritual struggle, though.
NIV writes:

...Rom 7:14-19--I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.

Jar writes:

But we live today. And today, we must work with what we have. To claim some relationship with GOD is to diminish God or Glorify Man.

So what is it that we have? Are you saying that there is nothing special about accepting Jesus? I will agree with you that Christians are no better and at many times as carnal or worse than unbelievers. You and I examined a few websites of some of the ministers who attempt to sell salvation and who treat Christianity as a business and a way to earn a living. I was watching TBN last night at my friends house and we saw the obvious hypocrisy of many of the so-called snake oil salesmen on Paul Crouches stage. We jokingly agreed that it seemed to be one giant Christian infomercial!

All that this shows me, however, is that humans have an intrinsically greedy nature and that the more that man attempts to put God in a box and/or glorify himself, the worse it appears and is.

Jar writes:

But we live today. And today, we must work with what we have. To claim some relationship with GOD is to diminish God or Glorify Man.

OK. But what did Jesus mean when He said
NIV writes:

Matt 19:26-- "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

What did He mean with God?

Edited by Phat, : fixed a mistake

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Edited by Phat, : testing new quote in signature

Edited by Phat, : spelling


Convictions are very different from intentions. Convictions are something God gives us that we have to do. Intentions are things that we ought to do, but we never follow through with them.
* * * * * * * * * *
“The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Homer Simpson: Sometimes, Marge, you just have to go with your gut!
Marge: You *always* go with your gut! How about for once you listen to your brain?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by jar, posted 07-27-2007 12:17 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 08-01-2007 11:12 AM Thugpreacha has responded

  
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