General Discussion Of Moderation Procedures 11.0

I don't think the action could accurately be referred to as sexist since when I suspended Berberry I thought she was a he. If you read upthread you'll see all my references to her are as a him. It was only after the suspension that someone made clear that she's a she.Three consecutive times Berberry turned against and began abusing moderators who were trying to help. We were all very sympathetic, but to let her continue in that vein would be bias. It also wouldn't be fair to her to allow her to continue to say things she'd probably later regret because of the likelihood that they were an expression of anger and frustration and not reflective of the way she really felt toward the people it was directed at. I don't what it is about this issue that is causing so many to decide to to take determined and rather impulsive stances, but I'll repeat what I said earlier. If you're posting to this thread only to register your dissatisfaction with moderation on this matter, a single post will do.And if you'd like to engage in a dialog with moderators to gain insight into the rationale behind any actions, and to help moderators explore other possible avenues, then that's great.But if the only outcome acceptable to you is a concession by moderators that you re right and they're wrong while declaiming the actions you disapproved of and while working against any constructive exploration of issues, then you're running seriously afoul of the Forum Guidelines and you have to stop.Also realize that this isn't a proxy thread for rehasing the issues of some other discussion.I hope Adminnemooseus reopens this thread soon. Once it is open again, please lets place discussion here on a constructive footing.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Oh! Sorry, Berberry. We haven't interacted much, and when someone in the thread referred to you as "she" I just assumed I had made an error.I don't know why this thread is still closed. Closing the moderation discussion thread for short periods I can see, though it wouldn't be something I'd recommend, but I definitely feel uncomfortable having it closed for extended periods. Opening this up again.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Because as a group you seem so determined to register your dissatisfaction with board moderation through guideline violations, sometimes even accompanied by an acknowledgement of the violation and explicit recognition of the risk of suspension. This seems more impulsive than calm and rational. Perhaps impulsive wasn't the best choice of words, but I don't think you'd like any of the alternatives, such as ill-considered, inflammatory, oppositional or antagonistic.Any suspensions were for guideline violations, sometimes ones the suspended party acknowledged making while making them, not for disagreeing with moderators.We only ask that members follow the Forum Guidelines while participating in discussion in this thread. It does no good if the thread for discussing moderator procedures gets mired in angry expressions and becomes a showcase for guideline violations.Judging from the comments of moderators both here and in the Admin forum, there's a strong consensus that this is a hot-button issue from which, given the strong feelings of some parties, only thunder rather than light is likely to emerge. It's been requested several times by moderators that the topic be allowed to drop, at least here in this thread. Perhaps those so inclined would like to start a thread in the Coffee House to discuss this.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

The problems in this thread (which actually trace back to the predecessor thread) began when NJ attempted to address concerns raised by Berberry. Berberry responded in Message 295: Responding later, again to NJ, Berberry writes in Message 3 that he's aware he's violating the Forum Guidelines: In Message 32 Berberry says that he intends to cease participation at EvC Forum: In Message 33, evidently still intending to leave, Berberry responds to NJ like this: Okay, this is getting pretty bad, but Berberry says he's leaving, so just leaving it alone is probably the best course, which is what was done.But Berberry was unable to stay away, as he writes in Message 48, and he's still mighty angry: So Berberry continues to violate the Forum Guidelines, as here in Message 51: And her in Message 53: Sympathetic to Berberry, but noting the inability of AdminPD, AdminModulous or myself to say anything that didn't cause Berberry greater and greater upset, and noting the expanding sphere of those he was willing to abuse, I suspended him to keep him from saying even more things that he might later regret. The suspension message reads like this: EvC Forum exists in order to provide a venue for constructive discussion on a topic that often degenerates into meaningless name-calling. The stress on being constructive in discussion extends to this very thread. Those who are upset to the point where they're not able to conform their behavior to the Forum Guidelines, which we rely on to keep discussion constructive, should not be participating here until they can. Demonizing those who disagree with you while ascribing base motives to their actions is easy to do, taking a constructive approach in the face of dissenting opinions is not. Nonetheless that's what's expected here.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

I'd like to thank everyone for their efforts at talking this through to a mutual understanding, but I think it's time to call a halt to this topic. Everyone who would like to may post their closing thoughts on the Berberry issue in a single message, no more.I encourage members to ensure that these messages conform to the Forum Guidelines. It would be really nice not to see words and phrases like "willfully ignorant", "disingenuous" and "lack of perspicacity" in these summaries, not to mention "stupid" and "obtuse". The definition of people possessing these qualities is not anyone who disagrees with you, and applying them to people you're in discussion with is inconsistent with the Forum Guidelines.Providing this thread for interacting with moderators is something we fully intend to continue, but it is possible for members to lose their permissions in this forum, the [forum=-19] forum, of which this thread is a part. This could happen to those who too often or too determinedly make a habit of ignoring the Forum Guidelines in this thread.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi Crash,The moderator team does not see anything constructive emerging from this discussion. If you'd like to continue discussion along these lines please open a new thread.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

It's been requested by moderators several times that we move on from this issue because it has become clear that no progress toward common ground or a mutual understanding is being made. Because of your persistence in pursuing this issue regardless, your permissions in the [forum=-19] forum have been removed. You may petition to have them back by sending email to Admin, but restoration of permissions is at the discretion of board administration.You could have opened a new thread in this forum to discuss this issue, as suggested earlier, but as that option is no longer open to you I suggest you take your issues with moderators to the [forum=-14] forum.Edited by Admin, : Spelling.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

To Rrhain and riVeRraT:I removed your permissions in this forum while AdminPD handed out only warnings to others, so for the sake of consistency I've restored your permissions in this forum.To Everyone:In the interest of allowing a free rein of expression with no hint of censorship, I think anyone should be able to express themselves in any way they like about moderators and moderation, but not here in this thread. This thread is for discussion with moderators on issues concerning moderators and moderation. If you desire a dialogue with moderators in this thread then please keep it civil and constructive or you could lose your permissions in this forum.We'll always try to provide sufficient warning, but at this time I believe that more than sufficient warning has already been given, not once but many times. Over at least the next few days, intemperate messages will likely bring a loss of permissions in this forum.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Well, I've thought about this for a bit, and given that half the board has been acting like there's been a full moon for the past week, what the heck, sure. Tell John his full permissions have been restored.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Hi John, welcome back! I presume most discussion boards have the same take as this one, namely that the more interesting, intriguing, controversial, etc., are the viewpoints presented, the more popular the board will be. I'm sure all the boards you mentioned, and certainly this one, welcome viewpoints like yours. You get banned everywhere because you refuse to follow the rules everywhere.Nothing has changed here regarding the Forum Guidelines. Follow the Forum Guidelines and you'll keep your permissions. Become a moderator headache by committing constant Forum Guidelines violations and you won't.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Well, it was a short stay. Bye.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

This is me in Message 203: This is John Davison responding in Message 204: John Davison's schtick is to behave outrageously until banned, then claim he was banned because his views outraged his opponents who had no answer for them. He can believe and espouse anything he likes as long as he follows the Forum Guidelines. He has a long history here, so there's so need to wait to find out what he means by his "usual forthright manner." He is welcome back at any time that he commits to follow the Forum Guidelines and for as long as he continues to follow them. No one is asked to be perfect in their adherence to the guidelines. Just as with traffic laws where you're usually fine if you stay within 10 mph of the speed limit and don't blow through stop signs, approximate adherence to the Forum Guidelines most of the time is all we ask. But just as doing 120 mph on the interstate or driving on the sidewalks downtown will get you in trouble, so as here if you abuse all and sundry then thumb your nose at moderators.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Enjoy!

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Yeah, I agree, and when I first saw your message a few hours ago I was disappointed that we'd suspended IamJoseph. He's one of the active creationist participants during a slow summer, and losing him has an impact.But then I read the thread. When Adminastasia posted this generally (i.e., to no one specifically) in Message 68: Only IamJoseph responded with this in Message 70: I won't call attention to all the errors and nonsense that you've already called attention to in that thread (Genes and rapid extinction), and I appreciate the great effort you've made to help IamJoseph understand where and in what ways he's unintelligible and not making sense, and maybe you interpret his posts differently from me, but what I see is persistent restatements of gibberish that use responses as points of departure while for the most part ignoring their contents.IamJoseph has been asked on several occasions if English is not his native language, and he's always vehemently responded that English is indeed his native language.It would be fine by me if AdminNosy reduced IamJoseph's suspension to time served so that you could continue to try to see if you can make a light bulb go on, but given his history of both antagonism towards moderators and inability to express himself clearly, I can't strongly argue for it.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

I've pondered often on these issues, they're all good points, no need to say more.One thing I will add, though, is that I am frequently puzzled by the creationist willingness to let total loons advocate for their side. If there were an evolutionist here arguing determinedly for Lamarckism he'd soon be drowning in rebuttals from evolutionists. But very strangely, at least to me, creationists see little or no problem with what their nuttier adherents say. How do they know these guys aren't really evolutionists posing as creationists to make creationism look bad?Oh, and I'll add one more thing. I'm also puzzled by our inability to attract articulate informed creationists. Most of them don't even understand that the goal of creation science is to eliminate religious references. If my school board ever held a hearing about creationism, I'd definitely invite all these guys to speak because their inability to keep references to God and Bible out of their arguments would be the most convincing evidence possible of the religious rather than scientific nature of creationism.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director