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Author Topic:   Why was the world created?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 31 of 59 (412821)
07-26-2007 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Straggler
07-26-2007 11:51 AM


Re: Is that a good enough answer?
Straggler writes:
Q: Why does he wish us good mental health?
I realize that I meant the answer in a general context. Perhaps I should clarify. IMB, God knows that humans need communion with Him. Without that source, our efforts and manifesting our destiny will be, in my opinion, ultimately futile and frustrating.
As a species, we could explore the farthest reaches of the known universe (ala Star Trek) but we would still be stuck with the same basic questions about life, meaning, and purpose that we now have (in my opinion)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Straggler, posted 07-26-2007 11:51 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Straggler, posted 07-26-2007 12:02 PM Phat has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 32 of 59 (412824)
07-26-2007 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Chiroptera
07-26-2007 11:52 AM


Re: The answer is easy
And don't forget the billions of people burning in Hell for not being sufficiently sycophantic. Or for being sycophants in the wrong way.
Indeed.
And created in the foreknowledge that they would not be sufficiently sycophantic or sycophantic the wrong way.
Imagine creating a person knowing before you created him/her that they would be burning in Hell forever.
What a nasty pices of work.
Well worthy of worship too!
Praise the Lord.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Chiroptera, posted 07-26-2007 11:52 AM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 33 of 59 (412826)
07-26-2007 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Phat
07-26-2007 11:56 AM


Re: Is that a good enough answer?
I realize that I meant the answer in a general context. Perhaps I should clarify. IMB, God knows that humans need communion with Him. Without that source, our efforts and manifesting our destiny will be, in my opinion, ultimately futile and frustrating.
As a species, we could explore the farthest reaches of the known universe (ala Star Trek) but we would still be stuck with the same basic questions about life, meaning, and purpose that we now have (in my opinion)
Q: Why would God create us to be futile and frustrated without him?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 07-26-2007 11:56 AM Phat has not replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 34 of 59 (412828)
07-26-2007 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Phat
07-26-2007 11:29 AM


Re: The word "Why?"
I think he's like 15 or so.

Disclaimer:
Occasionally, owing to the deficiency of the English language, I have used he/him/his meaning he or she/him or her/his or her in order to avoid awkwardness of style.
He, him, and his are not intended as exclusively masculine pronouns. They may refer to either sex or to both sexes!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Phat, posted 07-26-2007 11:29 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 35 of 59 (412837)
07-26-2007 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Open MInd
07-26-2007 11:01 AM


Re: Science is very credible.
Your message is full of falsehoods.
First, this world did not come from nothing.
This world exists because it accreted from a cloud of dust that in turn was the result of some stellar explosion. It absolutely had to form based on the amount of dust that was present. It had to form a roughly spherical shape.
There is little mystery there, rather just simple mechanics.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 36 of 59 (412910)
07-26-2007 6:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Open MInd
07-23-2007 12:37 PM


About nothing and invalid questions
Open MInd writes:
why did the nothing turn into something? My oppinion is that a "nothing" does not have a choice in the matter. Being nothing, it does not have any capabilities and it will do only nothing.
You have a strange notion of the meaning of the word 'nothing'. How can you even consider the question "why did the nothing turn into something?", or say something like "being nothing [...] it will do only nothing."? "The nothing"? What nothing? This nothing? Or that nothing over there? And what's this about "being nothing"? And "it will do only nothing"? Nothing is an it? Is there something sitting around somewhere, occupied with the sole task of being and doing nothing?
Can you see the absurdness of thinking about 'nothing' in this way? It suggests that 'nothing' is something that exists. But that is utterly absurd. 'Nothing' is the very opposite of existence. You can't talk about 'nothing' as if it's a thing. 'Nothing' is the complete absence of things.
I don't think it is logical for the scientists to dismiss this question. If no why can be thought of than the scientific theories are not complete, and the religions that answer this question will be more credible than science.
As yet, humans are still the only ones we know who entertain the concept of "why", not only in the sense of physical reasons for certain phenomena, but also in the sense of whether or not there is intention, or meaning, behind existence. On earth, billions of years have gone by without any creature ever asking "why all this?". Then humans evolved, and with them, intentionality. Humans have intentions, and that's why it's natural for us to ask "why?".
But we shouldn't project our intentionality on the world outside us without any good reason for doing so. The naked fact that we have intentions doesn't mean that this notion can be mapped to an aspect of reality outside the human condition.
If science doesn't come up with an answer for the why question, it might mean that scientific theory - or rather human knowledge - is incomplete, but it may also mean that there is no answer because the question is invalid. And if the question is invalid, then the answers that religions come up with notwithstanding, must be nonsense.
Asking why the world exists may be akin to asking about the colour of wednesday. Ask scientists and they will not be able to answer the question. If you then turn to religions and one says "green", another "red", and yet another "yellow", how does that make these religions more credible than science?

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science." - Charles Darwin.
Did you know that most of the time your computer is doing nothing? What if you could make it do something really useful? Like helping scientists understand diseases? Your computer could even be instrumental in finding a cure for HIV/AIDS. Wouldn't that be something? If you agree, then join World Community Grid now and download a simple, free tool that lets you and your computer do your share in helping humanity. After all, you are part of it, so why not take part in it?

This message is a reply to:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 37 of 59 (412913)
07-26-2007 7:17 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Phat
07-26-2007 11:21 AM


Re: Is That The Final Answer?
Phat
Or maybe the answer exists yet people either cannot or will not find it.
After centuries of thought by 100's of millions of people and yet there is no consensus as to what the answer is to the why of the universe. The pattern emerging does not appear to support the question as valid to begin with.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Phat, posted 07-26-2007 11:21 AM Phat has not replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1253 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 38 of 59 (412966)
07-27-2007 12:50 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Straggler
07-26-2007 11:25 AM


Re: Is that a good enough answer?
Q: Why did God create the existence of man?
A: So that we could worship him
I don't know where you got this answer to your question.
If you are hoping to feed the very human need for actual conscious meaning or intent in your 'why' then you will need to turn to religion.
The only answers to the question "why?" is either conscious meaning or intent, or its just because.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Straggler, posted 07-26-2007 11:25 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Phat, posted 07-27-2007 5:49 AM Open MInd has not replied
 Message 40 by Straggler, posted 07-27-2007 12:23 PM Open MInd has replied
 Message 41 by jar, posted 07-27-2007 12:51 PM Open MInd has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 39 of 59 (412991)
07-27-2007 5:49 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Open MInd
07-27-2007 12:50 AM


Re: Is that a good enough answer?
Open Mind writes:
The only answers to the question "why?" is either conscious meaning or intent, or its just because.
I believe that the answers are more along the lines of conscious meaning or intent.
I disagree with the whole cosmic lottery approach as to why there is an earth and life on that earth.
I do not believe that we are here by chance.
For other views on this subject, check out Paul Davies whose book, Cosmic Jackpot seems to imply a bizzare multi verse theory of existence which implies that there are many other universes. He has another book which I have read parts of, The Mind Of God but his hypothetical God is not the one that you learn about in Sunday school! I'm just showing you because I know that you have an inquisitive nature and would probably be unafraid to read such books with any worry of it changing your faith.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Open MInd, posted 07-27-2007 12:50 AM Open MInd has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 40 of 59 (413041)
07-27-2007 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Open MInd
07-27-2007 12:50 AM


Re: Is that a good enough answer?
The only answers to the question "why?" is either conscious meaning or intent, or its just because.
but my point is that even if you claim to know Gods intent you still end up with the question 'why' as to that intent.
I don't know where you got this answer to your question
So what would your answer be to that question?
and what intent is there behind whatever motive you give God for that answer.
That is the point.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Open MInd, posted 07-27-2007 12:50 AM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Open MInd, posted 07-27-2007 5:12 PM Straggler has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 41 of 59 (413048)
07-27-2007 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Open MInd
07-27-2007 12:50 AM


Re: Is that a good enough answer?
The only answers to the question "why?" is either conscious meaning or intent, or its just because.
That is a false dichotomy. There could be many reason why the world was created. I have outlined one for you.
The world was created because gravity attracts things nearby. Those things accrete which increases the total gravitational attraction of that object. As the object revolves around the sun, it comes close to other mater, adding to its mass with every event.
As the mass increases it eventually reaches a point where the gravitaional pull is sufficient to define the overall shape of the object itself and a spheriod is the result.
The answer is neither conscious meaning or intent, nor is it just because. There are very good reasons for the world to exist.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Open MInd, posted 07-27-2007 12:50 AM Open MInd has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Open MInd, posted 07-27-2007 4:48 PM jar has replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1253 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 42 of 59 (413105)
07-27-2007 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by jar
07-27-2007 12:51 PM


Re: Is that a good enough answer?
I have a good question for you. Where did the matter or cloud that was around before the big bang come from. Is that the part of the world which by your definition "has to exist." If you claim that a world has to exist, Why did the entire world not just exist from the begining?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by jar, posted 07-27-2007 12:51 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 07-27-2007 5:16 PM Open MInd has replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1253 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 43 of 59 (413108)
07-27-2007 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Straggler
07-27-2007 12:23 PM


Re: Is that a good enough answer?
but my point is that even if you claim to know Gods intent you still end up with the question 'why' as to that intent.
You may not understand the concept of a religious perspective of a supreme being. The idea is that this being cannot be completely understood by humans because humans were not given the ability to understand Him. In fact, the only one who can truly understand the nature of the Supreme Being is He Himself. Therefore, one cannot question the nature of the Being or the intent behind the decision. In a religious perspective the Supreme Being has given us a limited logical framework along with the world. Asking what causes this being to make decisions would be the equivalent of asking what causes the being to continue to exist.
So what would your answer be to that question?
and what intent is there behind whatever motive you give God for that answer.
My answer would be along the lines of reward for those who listen to his words. The reason for this world was not for us to serve; rather, the purpose of this world is for us to have a reward. Everyone religious would believe that there is a reward for following the rules. If our sole purpose was to worship than why would there need to be any reward? Furthermore if the sole purpose of the world were for the Creator to be worshiped, why would any blasphemy be tolerated at all? The sinners should be destroyed the instant they sin. In my framework, the purpose of our existence on this world is to earn a reward that is set-aside for us on another world. The reason for creating the world is because it is the "nature" (so to speak) of the creator to want to give to others.
The whole purpose of this world was to create others to give to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Straggler, posted 07-27-2007 12:23 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 44 of 59 (413109)
07-27-2007 5:16 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Open MInd
07-27-2007 4:48 PM


Re: Is that a good enough answer?
Where did the matter or cloud that was around before the big bang come from.
What does that have to do with the question of where the world came from?
This world is the result of many many things that have happened since the Big Bang. We are not a first generation world, rather we are the result of the birth and death of many older suns.
The cloud that our world is made of is the result of the death and destruction of earlier star systems. That is where the heavier elements that make up our world came from as well as the cloud of materials that became our sun and the planets of this solar system.
The world could not simply exist from the beginning, in particular, our world could not exist until the heavier elements were made, and they were made by suns using up their supply of hydrogen and moving on to fusion of heavier elements.
One of the more interesting studies lately is the attempt to identify which suns might be related to the event that led to the Solar System and would be sibling systems.
As to the "before the Big Bang" question, I'm not sure that even has any meaning. It certainly has little to do with our world.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Open MInd, posted 07-27-2007 5:31 PM jar has replied

  
Open MInd
Member (Idle past 1253 days)
Posts: 261
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 45 of 59 (413111)
07-27-2007 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Brian
07-26-2007 11:57 AM


Re: The answer is easy
Imagine creating a person knowing before you created him/her that they would be burning in Hell forever.
What makes you think that anyone is "burning in Hell forever"?
And created in the foreknowledge that they would not be sufficiently sycophantic or sycophantic the wrong way.
You are asking a very famous question. But, the answer is fairly simple. Knowing the future is not controlling the future. When one is created he has freewill. When he sins he is doing it out of his acting on his own volition and he will be punished. He will still be given a chance to earn his reward even though his Creator knows that he will not merit it.

This message is a reply to:
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