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Author Topic:   A critique of moral relativism
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 11 of 219 (411118)
07-19-2007 12:23 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Hyroglyphx
07-18-2007 7:14 PM


immorality is pretty unimportant anyway.
If you sleep with your father's wife consensually, who is not biologically related to you, does it then become morally acceptable to do so?
Again, it depends. Is she still in a contractual relationship with her husband? If so then it depends on whether or not all parties consent.
Is murder right or wrong?
Again, it depends. It will depend on the exact circumstances of the unique event whether or not it was murder, and even if murder, whether or not it was immoral.
Immorality is also totally irrelevant except between the individual and that individuals God. Quite frankly, immorality is nobody's business other than the individual.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-18-2007 7:14 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 07-19-2007 4:14 AM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 28 of 219 (411201)
07-19-2007 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
07-19-2007 4:14 AM


Re: immorality is pretty unimportant anyway.
It depends on the context. The Captain of the Airship Hindenburg may say that whether or not anyone smokes in the privacy of their cabins is very much his business since the results could affect the whole ship.
Part of the problem seems to be that the Christian Communion of Bobble-heads are unable to read or comprehend the meaning of words and their relation to reality.
What you describe has nothing to do with morality. The Captain of the Hindenburg may pass rules based on some criteria, in this case the risk of fire, but that has NOTHING to do with whether or not smoking in the cabin is moral or immoral.
I don't see where sex between two consenting adults would affect society,but others may say that there needs to be standards or else everyone could bring down the overall standard.
Once again, that has nothing to do with morality or immorality. Morality is a religious construct. It is relative to the individual and that individuals god.
Murder is different. Anytime there is a murder, the perpetrator most definitely can and does potentially affect society.
However, as I said, it will be the particulars of an individual, unique event that even determines whether or not the act was murder, and then a determination will be made as to whether or not it was justified. God murdered the people in Sodom.
The effect of murder on society has NOTHING to do with whether or not it is immoral. In some societies the moral thing to do is to kill girls that have extra-marital sex. That is moral, and in their society legal, and I still see it as wrong.
At Columbine High School, Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris personal lives and behaviors were said to be the business of their parents and authorities who should have seen it coming and attempted to stop them.
Yes, under the current social mores, parents are responsible for their children. But that is a social contract, it has NOTHING to do with morality or immorality.
At whatever point society attempts to impose standards on others, we need to ask ourselves if the reason is that it is everyones business or not.
What does that have to do with morality and immorality?
No one is saying that there should not be some standards. We are trying to talk about morality, not standards.
You seem to be confusing laws and morality.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin and add some more on murder.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Phat, posted 07-19-2007 4:14 AM Phat has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 45 of 219 (411256)
07-19-2007 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Hyroglyphx
07-19-2007 6:20 PM


Re: Arbitrary or deliberate?
So under those parameters it is absolutely wrong?
LOL
Are you saying that anyone in this thread has said there are no absolutes?
Of course there are absolutes. Many of them are also relative at the same time.
But the question is not whether or not something is right or wrong, it is whether or not something is moral and whether or not there is some "absolute morality".
A man butchers your four year old daughter, i.e. he murdered her. Is what he has done right or wrong? Are there any circumstances to where this man would actually be in the right?
Yup. Sure could be both in the right and also moral.
A great example can be found in the some of the sacred pools in South and Central America and in some of the burial sites on the Alto Plano. One thing found was the bones of young children, often young girls but also boys. These kids were sacrificed as part of a ritual to assure fertility.
Those acts were both right and moral.
However, should someone try to butcher my daughter, in this milieu and time, in this culture, he is very likely in the wrong, and it is probable that the act is immoral, but we would need much more information to determine that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-19-2007 6:20 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 55 of 219 (411393)
07-20-2007 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Hyroglyphx
07-20-2007 12:11 PM


is murder immoral?
The point is, whether or not something is murder depends on the circumstance of the incident and the context of the society. What may be murder in one context is justifiable homicide in another.
Even then, whether or not it is immoral depends on the religious framework of the moment.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-20-2007 12:11 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 134 of 219 (412346)
07-24-2007 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by Hyroglyphx
07-24-2007 12:34 PM


Re: Listen to what I am saying, as opposed to hearing what you want to hear
Why am I considered a "bigot," when
1. Morals are merely an opinion.
2. How can you possibly distinguish which is good, and which isn't, while holding to a relative standard?
No one has said morals are simply an opinion. You distinguish good and bad by comparison with other events.
But none of that has to do with morality.
Why do you keep misrepresenting what anyone says?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-24-2007 12:34 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-24-2007 2:19 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 138 of 219 (412360)
07-24-2007 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Hyroglyphx
07-24-2007 2:19 PM


morality is unimportant anyway.
No one has said that morals are only an opinion.
Actually, I've been asking this to all my detractors. No one has answered it outright. You are the first.
Actually, there again you misrepresent what people have said. Yes, people have answered the question. I have been answering that question or variations on it since Message 11 so far.
Morals are a religious concept and so related to a given religion in a given culture and milieu.
Morality is also totally irrelevant outside the individual and that person's deity.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-24-2007 2:19 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-24-2007 4:04 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 144 of 219 (412409)
07-24-2007 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Hyroglyphx
07-24-2007 4:04 PM


Re: morality is unimportant anyway.
Then is it immoral for their individual morals to be subjected against you?
That sentence doesn't even make sense. You keep conflating right and wrong, moral and immoral, legal and illegal as though they were in anyway related. Another persons morals cannot be subjected against me. It is simply impossible.
Morality is purely a religious concept. Whether something is moral or immoral is only relevant within a given religious context and only relevant to the adherents of that particular morality set.
You are a bigot, but that is unrelated to the question of whether your behavior is moral or immoral. You are judged a bigot based on the standard of a particular portion of society. Within the Christian Cult of Ignorance and Christian Communion of Bobble-heads, your message may not be seen as either immoral or even wrong.
I make no assessment as to whether your message is moral or immoral, as I said, that is totally irrelevant to me. That is unimportant.
However, based on the social norms and ethics of myself and perhaps others, I find your position bigoted and frankly, pitiful.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-24-2007 4:04 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-26-2007 6:31 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 153 of 219 (412911)
07-26-2007 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 152 by Hyroglyphx
07-26-2007 6:31 PM


Re: morality is unimportant anyway.
jar said:
You keep conflating right and wrong, moral and immoral, legal and illegal as though they were in anyway related.
to which NJ replied
quote:
Then differentiate for me since you think they aren't in any sense related.
I'll try.
Morality is a subset of ethics related to a given religious system. It involves those things which some religious dogma considers sins. It is a minor subset of the broader category of ethics.
Legality relates to established, written, codified behaviors. They have nothing to do with either ethics or morality, but rather some sense of societal safety and order.
Right and wrong depend totally on someones response to a given, unique set of circumstances. Sometimes what is right is illegal and immoral, or legal and immoral, or illegal yet moral.
An example might involve a response to an accident. If you pick up an injured person and rush that person to the hospital, you may well exceed the speed limit (becoming illegal) while saving a life (moral) and depending on the outcome (you hit a child crossing the street by accident) could be either a right or wrong action.
You do it all the time, Jar. You're one of the worst offenders here. Every time you call me a bigot, you are subjecting me to your moral standards.
Sorry, but that is nonsense. I can judge you based against my ethical standards, but that is not subjecting you to anything. It also has nothing to do with morality. Morality is within your religious communion. Morality will be determined within your communion.
As I said in Message 144:
You are a bigot, but that is unrelated to the question of whether your behavior is moral or immoral. You are judged a bigot based on the standard of a particular portion of society. Within the Christian Cult of Ignorance and Christian Communion of Bobble-heads, your message may not be seen as either immoral or even wrong.
I have no opinion on whether you position is moral or immoral, that is between you and your God. The judgment is made not on the basis of morality, but ethics, a broader category, and on right and wrong.
Then how is it that all of the irreligious folk on this forum plainly say that they have a set of morals, albeit, not an absolute set?
They have ethics. The idea of someone who irreligious having morality, which deals in the concept of sin and accountability to some god, is quite frankly, silly.
That does not preclude them having ethical standards.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-26-2007 6:31 PM Hyroglyphx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-27-2007 3:36 PM jar has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 162 of 219 (413092)
07-27-2007 3:43 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Hyroglyphx
07-27-2007 3:36 PM


Re: morality is unimportant anyway.
We've been over this multiple times. If laws were not derived by a moral framework, then laws would be completely arbitrary.
Not true. They can be based on things other than morals, they can be based on safety concerns, property valuation, efficiency, many things.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Hyroglyphx, posted 07-27-2007 3:36 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

  
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