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Author Topic:   Why It Is Right To Do Good To Others
ikabod
Member (Idle past 4493 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 226 of 304 (413971)
08-02-2007 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 225 by pelican
08-01-2007 5:03 PM


Re: This question of good and bad
keep hard to your idealistic view .. the world needs such people who have the balls to stand up and say this is not good enough we can do better , look here see what we could be , we need that shake up to keep us from sliding into inaction and by complacency into allow the bad to grow ...there can be little better to strive for that such ideals , we fail but we learn from that and move on and hopfully grow from the lesson ..and strive smarter and more skillfully.. but most importantly we continue to strive ...
i agree that we need to know the bad , to see it, feel it and learn to dispise it , and thus to strive against it .. this is a good reason for life ..but we must live in reality , the danger of peace and harmony is we relax and stop striving ....
remember a rock can only aspires to be a rock , a human can aspire to be so much more that a mere human ....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 225 by pelican, posted 08-01-2007 5:03 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 227 by pelican, posted 08-02-2007 7:49 AM ikabod has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 227 of 304 (413988)
08-02-2007 7:49 AM
Reply to: Message 226 by ikabod
08-02-2007 4:03 AM


idealistic impossibilty?
I've been pushing this ideal of peace and understanding without success for many years. It is only now that I see why it fails. It fails because humans cannot understand well without experience. It is not within their consciousness because it is from my life experiences, not theirs.
My ideals come from experiencing tragedy, so how can I expect others who have not experienced tragedy to understand from my view point? Maybe more will have to before we place the highest value on human life. I hope not,I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
However, I see my ideal is not based in reality as is right now. It is better for me to let go and upon realization that there is f..k all I can do, maybe I can find my own peace and harmony within? I'm due!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 226 by ikabod, posted 08-02-2007 4:03 AM ikabod has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 230 by ikabod, posted 08-03-2007 4:38 AM pelican has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 228 of 304 (414000)
08-02-2007 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 224 by pelican
08-01-2007 4:35 PM


Re: Confused? I am
dameeva writes:
I understand about pressure (to conform)from others, the need to belong and fear can create a follower who may be confused also.
Yes. There are, sadly, many ways to manipulate others.
Even knowledge of wrong will not stop this happening under these circumstances. It is so difficult being a minority of one against a number of others.
Yes, I agree. However, the knowledge will remove the excuses, and it will allow the small percentage that are simply confused to understand that doing right isn't "following those who profess to know what's right".
I believe it is the leaders who lack the integrity and it amazes me how thousands can follow the likes of Hitler, but they do.
It amazes me too. I'd bet that some education in "mob mentality" would shed some light on this subject. But that is learning that I do not yet possess.
It seems to me that right\wrong, good and bad will exist as long as we do.
I do not agree. Or, at least, I do not agree that it must exist as long as we do. Like I said, I still ultimately believe in the high-ideal you brought up originally. I just think there's a few more mundane benchmarks we need to traverse on our way there. Knowledge of what good and bad actually is (and what it is not) is one of those benchmarks we must understand before we're able to dismiss them.
How can we possibly do away with "good" and "bad" if we don't even know what they are so we can avoid them?
I very much doubt that such a land-mark can be reached in our life-time. But that doesn't stop me from doing what I can to promote ourselves along the path heading in that direction.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 224 by pelican, posted 08-01-2007 4:35 PM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 229 by pelican, posted 08-02-2007 8:49 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied
 Message 234 by GDR, posted 02-14-2019 2:52 PM Stile has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 229 of 304 (414122)
08-02-2007 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Stile
08-02-2007 9:47 AM


pleasure and pain
Hi Stile, I believe fundamentally we all know the difference between good and bad behaviour within the human experience. Good creates pleasure and bad creates pain. There really is no other definition without having a list 10miles long to cover every little move we make(which I think we may already have).
We would go a long way if we judged only the behaviour and not the human. You yourself have referred to people as con-men, bad people, evil doers and this is a form of de-humanizing. We are many things including good and bad. We grow and learn within this realm of pleasure and pain and there is no substitute for experience.
Edited by dameeva, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Stile, posted 08-02-2007 9:47 AM Stile has seen this message but not replied

  
ikabod
Member (Idle past 4493 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 230 of 304 (414185)
08-03-2007 4:38 AM
Reply to: Message 227 by pelican
08-02-2007 7:49 AM


Re: idealistic impossibilty?
personal experience is the greatest teacher , but saddly, we humans have a ability to detach from others , we say well that will never happen to me , we block out things we find unpleasent , even just thinking about them . we get on with our own lives and ignore the rest ...
this is why we all need to hear others experiences and views ... this is why you CAN do something .. you can tell and explain till you are blue in the face , ram the true people brains .. and hpoe a little sticks ...infomation is the weapon to use .. ..ok no one else can FEEL the affect of your tragedy the same way you do .. but a few will understand WHY you feel that way ..and thus an ideal can spread and become a goal that others can aspire to ...
it is vital to shake up the comfortable , those who fell safe .. remind them the world has teeth and claws and knows how to use them ...
sad to say it seems it becomes the unfair burdend apon those who have suffered a tragedy to teach the rest of us to values of human life .... instill in us the fear of more tragedy , show us the hurt and pain .. make us feel ... bring the concequences into our homes .. make us take account of the "bad" when we make each choice ...
if the ideal of peace and understanding is not held up and seen , tragedy will be our destiny ....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 227 by pelican, posted 08-02-2007 7:49 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 231 by pelican, posted 08-03-2007 5:50 AM ikabod has replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 231 of 304 (414189)
08-03-2007 5:50 AM
Reply to: Message 230 by ikabod
08-03-2007 4:38 AM


Re: idealistic impossibilty?
Your words really move me, ikabod. I hope many others truly hear them too. It really is too close to the bone for me and I come out attacking rather than feel my pain again. I know it's crazy. I want to bang peoples heads together and say, "love each other!" A contradiction in what I wish to achieve.
But I do hear you when you say to tell why I feel this way. No one has ever understood my motive or actions because I don't tell them. Oh god, here we go again, you opening me up like a can of worms. I am so grateful for your common sense observations. Please keep them coming.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 230 by ikabod, posted 08-03-2007 4:38 AM ikabod has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 232 by ikabod, posted 08-04-2007 3:30 AM pelican has replied

  
ikabod
Member (Idle past 4493 days)
Posts: 365
From: UK
Joined: 03-13-2006


Message 232 of 304 (414429)
08-04-2007 3:30 AM
Reply to: Message 231 by pelican
08-03-2007 5:50 AM


Re: idealistic impossibilty?
go bang so heads together .. somepeople need that to make them listen.. make people uncomfortable by tellin them things .. then lets hope they workout why they feel uncomfortable ....
please dont take my words as common sense , im not that smart , gifted or wise, i have just experienced a bit of life , and tried to see it with eyes wide open , and hopefully have been able to be selfcritical about my judgements , heck i know the large number of faults i have , and plenty more i fail to notice, so dont hold me up as an example of comman sense...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 231 by pelican, posted 08-03-2007 5:50 AM pelican has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 233 by pelican, posted 08-04-2007 8:44 AM ikabod has not replied

  
pelican
Member (Idle past 4985 days)
Posts: 781
From: australia
Joined: 05-27-2007


Message 233 of 304 (414449)
08-04-2007 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by ikabod
08-04-2007 3:30 AM


Re: idealistic impossibilty?
It wasn't much of a compliment. I didn't say smart, wise or gifted. ha ha. Life experiences and eyes wide open is good enough for me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by ikabod, posted 08-04-2007 3:30 AM ikabod has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 234 of 304 (848738)
02-14-2019 2:52 PM
Reply to: Message 228 by Stile
08-02-2007 9:47 AM


Goodness
Stile writes:
How to rationalize goodness existing in the world as an atheist:
Goodness exists in the world because some people want it to (including myself.)
There. That didn't seem so hard.
But, like Tangle said, it's off-topic here.
If you'd like to press it, you can take it here:
This is a long and old thread that I haven't participated in. I'm not going to go back and review all that has already been said so this is a reboot.
I'm sure you do want that which is good. But what makes it good? The fact that you want it? Why do you want it?
We've had these discussions before. It's good for your gene pool. It is an evolved feeling.
If we are simply here as a result of an endless progression of mindless processes; a collection of mindless particles that have mindlessly come together to form intelligent creatures then there is no ultimate good or evil. It is simply what we think at the time. Hitler thought that it would be good if we could eradicate Jews. The 9/11 terrorists thought that it would be good to do what they did. Who are you to say they were wrong.
If there is an ultimate good then that ultimate good is something that exists outside of our perceived existence.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Stile, posted 08-02-2007 9:47 AM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 235 by ringo, posted 02-14-2019 3:09 PM GDR has replied
 Message 239 by Theodoric, posted 02-14-2019 3:37 PM GDR has replied
 Message 242 by Theodoric, posted 02-14-2019 3:44 PM GDR has replied
 Message 249 by Stile, posted 02-14-2019 4:08 PM GDR has replied
 Message 251 by Tanypteryx, posted 02-14-2019 4:09 PM GDR has replied
 Message 264 by AZPaul3, posted 02-14-2019 6:13 PM GDR has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 235 of 304 (848741)
02-14-2019 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by GDR
02-14-2019 2:52 PM


Re: Goodness
GDR writes:
But what makes it good?
What makes an "ultimate good" good?

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by GDR, posted 02-14-2019 2:52 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 236 by GDR, posted 02-14-2019 3:27 PM ringo has replied
 Message 238 by Theodoric, posted 02-14-2019 3:33 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 236 of 304 (848743)
02-14-2019 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by ringo
02-14-2019 3:09 PM


Re: Goodness
ringo writes:
What makes an "ultimate good" good?
As a Christian theist it is my "belief", that it represents a fundamental nature of God and His desires for it to be a fundamental part of our nature.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by ringo, posted 02-14-2019 3:09 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 237 by ringo, posted 02-14-2019 3:32 PM GDR has replied
 Message 240 by PaulK, posted 02-14-2019 3:42 PM GDR has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 237 of 304 (848745)
02-14-2019 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by GDR
02-14-2019 3:27 PM


Re: Goodness
GDR writes:
As a Christian theist it is my "belief", that it represents a fundamental nature of God and His desires for it to be a fundamental part of our nature.
That's circular. Good is good because it's what God wants - and God must be good because what He wants is good.

And our geese will blot out the sun.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by GDR, posted 02-14-2019 3:27 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 241 by GDR, posted 02-14-2019 3:43 PM ringo has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 238 of 304 (848747)
02-14-2019 3:33 PM
Reply to: Message 235 by ringo
02-14-2019 3:09 PM


Re: Goodness
What makes an "ultimate good" good?
Must be like those "historical truths" I can not get an explanation about.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by ringo, posted 02-14-2019 3:09 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 239 of 304 (848748)
02-14-2019 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 234 by GDR
02-14-2019 2:52 PM


Re: Goodness
In what way is this a refutation of Stile's argument?
One problem with your argument is that you are equivocating the word good. The goodness of which Stile is referring is not the same use of the word(though they are spelled the same) as the good you are using about Hitler.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 234 by GDR, posted 02-14-2019 2:52 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 243 by GDR, posted 02-14-2019 3:48 PM Theodoric has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 240 of 304 (848749)
02-14-2019 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 236 by GDR
02-14-2019 3:27 PM


Re: Goodness
quote:
As a Christian theist it is my "belief", that it represents a fundamental nature of God and His desires for it to be a fundamental part of our nature.
Well that establishes that “good” is a problem for Christian theists.
But we have yet to see any reason to think that atheists have to rationalise the existence of good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by GDR, posted 02-14-2019 3:27 PM GDR has not replied

  
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