Design on a Dime

Title is terrible, I can change it.I was thinking of having a round-table type discussion with other creationists/IDists of any persuasion, about the specifics of the creation event.Here are some sample questions:How long did the creation event last?

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When did it occur?

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Do you believe it is 'finished', or ongoing?

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How much intelligence or preplanning went into the creation itself?

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How much was left to chance?

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Did God build up the design in small stages which are observable by science, or create 'whole' specimens?

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Is God in any way part of the creation, guiding its progress?I am interested in the reasoning behind the beliefs, {Biblical, science-influenced, or personal. Friendly banter, of course, but mostly a semi-comprehensive look at how much creatiionism differs from person to person.I wrote this out quickly, so feel free to critique. I know it is a silly topic to some, but I am genuinely curious about where Christianity is going.

Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

Double postEdited by nemesis_juggernaut, : No reason given.

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"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt

Six days according to the Scriptures, though some will use 2^nd Peter as a reason to assume that "days" is an unspecified amount of time according the Hebrew word for day, which is "Yom." (Even though Yom Kippur lasts one calender day) Not sure. If we extrapolate backwards using the genealogies, we come up with a figure around 6,200 years or so. But, radiometric dating, which is hotly debated, says that it began somewhere in the ball park of 4.5 billion years (plus or minus a few million years, respectively). I think creation is finished, but not procreation. I can only know what God has revealed. I know nothing of this, so I don't know. I don't know. I think that leaving things up to chance may be a part of His will, based on His ability to allow for freewill. If He doesn't micromanage my life, I don't think I have a reason to assume He would with nature.Or maybe its something like this:God establishes the rules beforehand, such as the laws of nature. The laws of nature dictates that if I fall of a cliff, I go splat. By chance I fall off said cliff. He didn't caused me to fall, but I'm still subject to the law. Depends on what you mean by 'whole.' I don't know. All I know is that He layed the foundation and that everything is accountable to Him. Beyond that, its just speculation I suppose.Good questions, Ana. But I fear that given the lack of knowledge, most of them may be insoluble-- or an enigma at the very least.

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"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt

In precisely the same way that the flatness of the Earth and the reality of the Holocaust are "hotly debated". Anything can be debated: all you need is a crank and a soapbox.Less with the weasel words, please.Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

Sorry I can't let that one go. NJ you must be honest - you do not know that he laid the foundation and that everything is accountable to God - that is but a speculation, a speculation based on faith perhaps but still a speculation.

Thanks for your reply, nemesis. Yes. Yes.I am ideally looking for your own opinion, but I don't mind having the cards laid out on the table. You can't deny that new species will develope, though, can you? I am not sure if evolution predicts new species, or if I have the wrong term there...but even humans can 'create' new varieties in life form. I'm not sure...are you completely anti-evo? If so, this question may sound odd. I don't want to know how intelligent God is, but rather, how much detail He planned out. It is more of a significant question if your creationism verges on deism, or a God who put things in motion and let them run their course. Sure, I don't think God is personally responsible for the centipedes congregating at my doorstep, but if you leave things entirely up to chance, there is the possibility that mankind was never 'meant to be'. Well, do you think it impossible that scientists could study creation in action? What if God DID build up from single celled life into complex life? Or do you believe he produced complex life out of nothing? That is great standard theology, but at this present conflicted time, it behooves one to speculate about the very foundation itself. I think we are messing in some scary stuff, and that answers are near...I am curious if Christianity will pass the trial without some serious looks at itself. Even as a Catholic I am unsatisfied at the 'theories' or gaps left by theologians when they try to incorporate evolution. It is all reactive 'I can make this work' stuff, but NOTHING to tell us how to fit the pieces together. Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

iceage, I want to have a comfortable discussion with creos. Just for once, I don't want the chorus of skeptics. You certainly may participate, but only if you can pit yourself hypothetically in a position to argue for or against an idea in the context of belief . When I ask these questions, I am assuming already that they are faith based, and upping the ante a little for creos to step outside of revelation and do some guess work. Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

You know my position but it is not my intention to hijack your thread with atheistic evangelism. If you feel I am doing so please do let me know and I will desist.I thought I would try answering your questions from the context of the creationist position as I (and other non-believers) understand it to be. In the name of clarifying their position maybe a creationist can then tell us where I have got it wrong? Literalists claim six days but there seems to be some internal dispute as to exactly what a 'day' means in the absence of the objects normally needed to define such things (i.e. the Sun) Around 6 thousand years ago according to calculations of age and geneology stated in the bible starting from Adam. 4002BC I believe was once the official date of creation according to the church? As I understand it creationist believe that no new 'kinds' are possible but that microevolution and some form of speciation (in the sense of related creatures diverging to the point of being unable to breed together) will continue. Hmm. Enough to make the ongoing existence of humans a certainty at the very least. I would guess most creationists would believe that the initial setup was 'planned' in the sense that it was intended to a very high degree but that subsequent events have been left to the laws of nature initially setup. Initially very little if anything. Subsequently the laws of nature including chance events have taken place as God has sat back with a more 'hands off' approach. I think the real fundamentalists believe in the 'created whole' version of events. It is this that is most at odds with scientific findings and it is this that less fundamentalist believers have on the whole rejected in favor of the more incrememtal approach that science suggests.I think this is the key difference between fundamentalists and the majority of believers who accept the conclusions of mainstream science to some degree. Hmm. That is difficult. At a 'changing natural laws' or 'interfering in natural processes' level the answer has to be 'no'. But at the same time belief in a personal God does imply that God has a personal interest in the lives of individual humans and the ability to change their lives as the result of prayer or other communication. Unless God is just providing spiritual comfort but not intervening physically in any way this seems internally contradictory so it may well be that I have got that wrong.Be interested to see what creationists make of my 'role playing' answers and how they would correct them.Ana - Please do tell me if you would rather I left you and the genuine believers to get on with the discussion undisturbed.

Huh? If you mean the creation of this universe, then it is still ongoing so something over 14.5 Billion years. Unknown. Unknown. There is NO evidence of special creation.

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Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Think of God as Donald Trump. He builds a factory to make Trumpmobiles. On opening day, he cuts the ribbon and gives reporters a tour. ("This is the machine that installs the hood ornament.")Does he get in there with a wrench to adjust every windshield wiper?Micromanagement on the part of the designer would only indicate a poor design. To hell in a handbasket.

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Then we can't know anything by the same token, and we'll be forced to concede to either the nihilist or solipsist view where everything is speculatory.

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"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt

Then I would have to say I don't have a definitive one. I'm open to suggestion concerning timelines. Ursine, canine, feline, etc all have a great capacity for variation available within their DNA. For instance, in all likelihood there were no Chihuahua's during the beginning. But all of the genetic material necessary for there to be a Chihuahua has always existed, from the beginning, for a Chihuahua to develop through variation from its early canine ancestor.I don't see that as "creation." I see that as procreation. I don't know that you mean? Do I believe in evolution? Yes, I do, to an extent. Darwin made some excellent observations with finches and iguanas and what not. He determined how different traits could arise due to mutation (though he didn't fully understand the concept at the time), isolation, etc. But he somehow came to the conclusion that everything is ultimately related to some primordial bacterium, because without it, you must concede that there is/are a Creator(s). This is the issue I have with mainstream Darwinism. Oh, I see. I'm sorry I didn't initially understand the question. What I think about God is that He does not amble along with us on a time line because He lives outside of time. Whatever happens in the physical world, for Him, is happening, did happen, and will happen simultaneously.And basic physics explains that time, space, and matter are intimately connected. Because of this, I don't think that God thinks in a manner we are capable of understanding. Therefore, I don't think planning, which obviously includes thinking, is something that God does.I do think that God leaves much of the creation alone, as it seems to coincide with freewill. That is not to say that I do not believe also doesn't intervene divinely. I believe He can and does upon our request. I don't think its entirely up to chance. Like I said, I think He established the rules and laws that would govern the universe, but that He isn't, as you say, responsible for the immediate congregation of centipedes. The way I see it, Ana, is that we can't have our cake and eat it too. Why would God only begin to reveal Himself to man, 6,000 years ago, and say nothing about the 4.5 billion years of time before then? Why do we have a gospel geared for mankind, and not, say, some simian? It seems remarkably self-evident that humans are VASTLY different from all other creatures, to the point that there is no comparison. It appears very much intended that we were to be distinguished for His purpose.I think we forget that this is His life-- we're just in it. He is the Dreamer and we are His dream. We are the clay and He is the Claymaker. He may fashion us in whatever way seems fit.So, yes, I believe that God produced complex and simple life ex nihilo with a specific purpose. I couldn't agree more that I am unsatisfied that anyone would try and incorporate evolution, when the whole point of evolution is that it is a chance event. It makes Genesis inscrutable. How can we have it both ways when they are diametrically opposed? Either you believe what it says or you don't. We can't take little pieces here to believe, and brush aside the rest because it conforms to whatever we want it to.

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"It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by the dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs and comes short again and again; who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions and spends himself in a worthy course; who at the best, knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who, at worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly; so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory or defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt

Then I take it that you believe he did this over and over and over again through a long time span? You talk about canines and felines: once there were neither. So you believe they were created separately long after, say, birds?

Firstly let me state that I am not here to pick an argument with you and will take your answers at face value and without cynicism.I wish only to clarify not to contest.Ana set up this thread for her fellow Christians to explain their views in the context of belief and I will respect that.But I do want to clarify your position regards this as I think it is also relevant to what Ana is interested in - Does this mean that whatever physical evidence is or can be found for evolution you will ALWAYS believe evolution to be wrong?
Is your belief in the literal truth of the bible so strong that your views on evolution are effectively fixed irrespective of what science has to say on the matter now or at any point in the future?