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Author Topic:   What is an Articulate Informed Creationist
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 106 of 154 (414539)
08-04-2007 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by ICANT
08-04-2007 3:32 PM


Informed
He seems to be pretty well informed on what he believes.
It is just that if what he believes is the truth then the rest of us are a bunch of intellectual dwarfs.
What he believes isn't what counts in this case. It is being informed about facts of the real world that I think is interesting in this context. For someone to argue over the various ideas about geology, time scales and biology they need to have a grounding in the most significant facts. If they are utterly uninformed about what is known about the world they can be very articulate but unable to really join into the discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by ICANT, posted 08-04-2007 3:32 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by ICANT, posted 08-04-2007 4:52 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 107 of 154 (414541)
08-04-2007 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by ICANT
08-04-2007 4:02 PM


Re: What is an Articulate Informed Creationist
MMmm, my dear brother ICant, I'm really pleased to have you on the creo team at EvC. You are rapidly becoming articulate and informed. Why? Because you are so eager and willing to learn. Hopefully we on the creo team, the great minority may together become more articulate and informed. Much of what I know has come form my counterparts in debate, either directly or in research so as to try and make sensible responses, et al.
That's all I had better say in response to your excellent message so as not to have us both in the suspension clink for violation of Forum Guidelines. Perhaps some points of your message are more in sinc with the OP than I am crediting you with, however, being some are more compatible with topic than others.
I'm sure we'll have other opportunities to address some of the points of your messag. May God bless you richly!

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by ICANT, posted 08-04-2007 4:02 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 108 of 154 (414542)
08-04-2007 4:45 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by ICANT
08-04-2007 4:02 PM


Re: What is an Articulate Informed Creationist
ICant writes:
I think herein I see one of the biggest problem we have here at EvC.
Everyone here is lumping everybody that believes in creation by God into the same camp with ID/ers, and YEC'ers.
Yah, I know. For years I've tried to make it clear that I'm neither a YEC or YUC (young universe creo), explaining in detail as to why not a YEC and why I am eternal universalist but often still get lumped in the one lump as you say.
Having said the above, certainly there are YEC PHD's and others who are a whole lot more articulate and informed on many aspects of creationism than I'll ever be, so I thank God for them and support them inasmuch as possible without compromising what i believe to be the correct rendering of the Genesis account. There are a number of counts where I disagree with ICR (Institution for Creation Research), for example but I am thankful for their Grand Canyon video as well as the Mt St Helens video, both of which I have. I know these are receiving a lot of criticism by my counterparts, but imo, either they haven't even seen the videos or if they have they choose to throw out the baby with the bathwater on these. At any rate some of their objections are 2nd hand miss-inform-ation.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by ICANT, posted 08-04-2007 4:02 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 109 of 154 (414543)
08-04-2007 4:52 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by NosyNed
08-04-2007 4:07 PM


Re: Informed
What he believes isn't what counts in this case.
But it is the only thing that matters.
You did notice I said:
He seems to be pretty well informed on what he believes
I did not say scientific facts.
I have found in dealing with people since 1965 as a pastor that what they believe is everything to them.
I also learned I can not change anyone's views or beliefs.
If someone is going to change their belief's be they believer or non believer it has to come from within their mind.
I can only put forth information. I try to put it in a way that they can understand it. Then it is up to them to read it, digest it, and either believe it or reject it.
If a person has an open inquisitive mind they can learn.
If they have a closed mind it does not matter how much you present something and can prove it beyond a shadow of doubt they can not comprehend it, because their mind is made up already as to what they believe.
So don't tell me what he believes does not matter in this case or any other case, it does matter.
A person that is taught Atheism from birth will more than likely die an Atheist.
A person taught God from birth will more than likely die a believer.
A person that has been taught a bunch of garbage from birth will more than likely die believing that same garbage.
I have seen this alluded to many times here on EvC about believers.

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by NosyNed, posted 08-04-2007 4:07 PM NosyNed has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by bluegenes, posted 08-04-2007 5:12 PM ICANT has not replied

  
bluegenes
Member (Idle past 2477 days)
Posts: 3119
From: U.K.
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 110 of 154 (414544)
08-04-2007 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by ICANT
08-04-2007 4:52 PM


Re: Informed
ICANT writes:
A person that is taught Atheism from birth will more than likely die an Atheist.
Everyone is an atheist at birth. No need for teaching. Also off topic, but worth discussing elsewhere if you believe otherwise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by ICANT, posted 08-04-2007 4:52 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by Buzsaw, posted 08-04-2007 6:43 PM bluegenes has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 111 of 154 (414551)
08-04-2007 6:38 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Chiroptera
08-04-2007 2:38 PM


Intellectural Founders.
Chiroptera writes:
Actually, the US has never been very prone to thinking.
Many of the Founding Fathers were brilliant intellectuals, but that was pretty much the last time intellectual thought had any place in the public discourse.
Mmm, So you admit that the ones who established and founded a nation of Christian principles in and out of government were brilliant and intellectual. That's interesting coming from you, given these believed in about everything the EvC despised Biblical fundamentalists of today believe, even to the extent that they all were brought up beginning with the NEW ENGLAND PRIMER, all Bible, and the Bible and Watts hymnal in every classroom taught actively. Not only that but church was held in the halls of Congress with the Marine band providing the music.
IMO, Chriroptera, if these men were here debating in EvC you would regard them as the most far out non-articulate and ill informed folk that you ever encountered. Furthermore given their feisty Boston Tea Party and Revolutionary disposition/mindset to government intervention and control of religion in and out of government, any one of them would last about a quarter of a thread here on this board and off they would go into permanent ban land.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Chiroptera, posted 08-04-2007 2:38 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Chiroptera, posted 08-04-2007 8:24 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 112 of 154 (414553)
08-04-2007 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by bluegenes
08-04-2007 5:12 PM


Re: Informed
[qs=bluejeans] LOL. According to the record, John the Baptist just before birth leaped in the womb of Elizabeth when he heard the salutation of Mary who at the time was early in her pregnancy with Jesus of the Holy Spirit. Not only that, but likely nobody quite knows how much of the mindset of mothers is bred into the babe in a sublime manner of some sort.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by bluegenes, posted 08-04-2007 5:12 PM bluegenes has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 113 of 154 (414565)
08-04-2007 8:24 PM
Reply to: Message 111 by Buzsaw
08-04-2007 6:38 PM


Re: Intellectural Founders.
So you admit that the ones who established and founded a nation of Christian principles in and out of government were brilliant and intellectual.
We've already had several threads where we've tried to disabuse you of the myth that the Founding Fathers founded a government based on Christian principles. It's up to you if you want to stubbornly hold onto that particular error, but it's not really on topic here.
-
IMO, Chriroptera, if these men were here debating in EvC you would regard them as the most far out non-articulate and ill informed folk that you ever encountered.
That may be so. We've come a long way since 1776, and we know a lot more than they did then. But I suspect that at least some of them would have been able to keep up the advancement of knowledge and to accept how the ideals they worked for have progressed. After all, many of them were great intellectuals; it's hard to think that they all would be mentally stuck in the 18th century.
-
Furthermore given their feisty Boston Tea Party and Revolutionary disposition/mindset to government intervention and control of religion in and out of government, any one of them would last about a quarter of a thread here on this board and off they would go into permanent ban land.
Perhaps. If Jefferson or Adams ever joins this board and are subsequently banned you can bring the issue up with Percy.

I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! -- Ned Flanders

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by Buzsaw, posted 08-04-2007 6:38 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 114 of 154 (414566)
08-04-2007 8:34 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Chiroptera
08-04-2007 2:38 PM


Seriously Though
Actually, the US has never been very prone to thinking.
Many of the Founding Fathers were brilliant intellectuals, but that was pretty much the last time intellectual thought had any place in the public discourse.
LoL A bit of yank self-deprecating humour will always go down well over here.
Seriously though - I cannot think of another western democracy where the leader of the country could be a fundamentalist creationist!!
What is it about the U.S that makes this possible as compared to other comparable nations?
Edited by Straggler, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Chiroptera, posted 08-04-2007 2:38 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Chiroptera, posted 08-04-2007 9:03 PM Straggler has not replied
 Message 126 by Doddy, posted 08-06-2007 8:37 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 115 of 154 (414569)
08-04-2007 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by Straggler
08-04-2007 8:34 PM


Re: Seriously Though
What is it about the U.S that makes this possible as compared to other comparable nations?
That's a good question. As I've said, since independence, US society has never been too fond of intellectuals or rationality. Americans have always been fond of emotionalism and "gut instinct". I dunno why -- it seems to be a national trait.

I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! -- Ned Flanders

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Straggler, posted 08-04-2007 8:34 PM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by Buzsaw, posted 08-04-2007 11:10 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 116 of 154 (414578)
08-04-2007 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Chiroptera
08-04-2007 9:03 PM


Re: Seriously Though
Chiroptera writes:
Americans have always been fond of emotionalism and "gut instinct". I dunno why -- it seems to be a national trait.
But by and large, unlike so many looser despotic governments, we've been Biblically articulate and intelligent enough via majority Biblical Christian citizenry from the founders until recently or possibly the present to be the most desireable nation to live in of all the nations. But from here where we go is likely down, given the secularist mindset trend that is emerging in our time according to the evidence of history, particularly the secularist humanist brutal regimes of Europe and Asia last century.
Mohammed was gossly articulately and imformation deficient Biblically, as evidenced in his book which misapplies much of what the Bible advocated for Israel to advance his ambitions of world domination for his religion, Islam by imposing his version of OT Levitical Law upon all nations by the sword, beginning with Mecca and most of the Mideast, now focusing on Europe and finally the West for the future.
Having said the above, imo, articulate and informed creationists are not only what EvC's science sector needs, but what the whole planet needs more of if humanity is to progress and survive. According to the Biblical prophecies, it won't happen until messiah Jesus returns to fix it.
Informed, implies truth. What is truth? The more we can determine the answer to that the more we can really determine who is really informed. I guess that's what we're all here attempting to do is to inform ourselves and one another in our attempts to answer that question, what is truth.
Likely Stalin and Hitler were both articulate and informed in their ideology which they purposed to impose on the planet. Their scientists were some of the best. So scientifically articulate and informed is not necessarily a virtue the world needs outside of truth and the Biblical golden rule. The end results of these looser despots pretty much assured the world that truth was deficient in their ambitions and ideologies.
So as to be fair and balanced in my citing Mohammed, The Christianity professing popes and bishops of Vatican City were like him, misapplying scripture to empower and enrich themselves and bring upon the planet the brutal bloody dark ages in a Christian era/age where Jesus and the desciples of the Bible advocated non-violence for all of NT Christianity.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Chiroptera, posted 08-04-2007 9:03 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by Chiroptera, posted 08-04-2007 11:58 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 118 by arachnophilia, posted 08-05-2007 12:31 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 117 of 154 (414580)
08-04-2007 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Buzsaw
08-04-2007 11:10 PM


Re: Seriously Though
Mohammed was gossly articulately and imformation deficient Biblically, as evidenced in his book which misapplies much of what the Bible advocated for Israel to advance his ambitions of world domination for his religion, Islam by imposing his version of OT Levitical Law upon all nations by the sword, beginning with Mecca and most of the Mideast, now focusing on Europe and finally the West for the future.
And somehow you even manage to work in your other favorite boogy-man.

I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! -- Ned Flanders

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Buzsaw, posted 08-04-2007 11:10 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by Buzsaw, posted 08-05-2007 12:46 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 118 of 154 (414584)
08-05-2007 12:31 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Buzsaw
08-04-2007 11:10 PM


Re: Seriously Though
But by and large, unlike so many looser despotic governments, we've been Biblically articulate and intelligent enough via majority Biblical Christian citizenry from the founders until recently or possibly the present to be the most desireable nation to live in of all the nations. But from here where we go is likely down, given the secularist mindset trend that is emerging in our time according to the evidence of history, particularly the secularist humanist brutal regimes of Europe and Asia last century.
there are so many things wrong with this statement i don't know where to begin. i would ask if this were "opposite day" but these are points you keep bring up, and we keep refuting, and you never seem to get tired of.
our nation's founders were not "biblical christians." most were deists, and utterly opposed to the idea of a country based on religion. a christian majority (that's ALL christians, not "biblical christians") is somewhat questionable. and most do not believe like you do -- your group just happens to be especially loud.
and religion is used as frequently as it is not as a tool for despots and genocidal maniacs.
Mohammed was gossly articulately and imformation deficient Biblically, as evidenced in his book which misapplies much of what the Bible advocated for Israel to advance his ambitions of world domination for his religion, Islam by imposing his version of OT Levitical
it's always funny how "i don't agree with it" becomes "he must be inarticulate and stupid." instead of arguing in this thread for the proper definition of an articulate and informed creationist (you know, that pesky thing called a "topic") you have instead opted to set up a boogeyman strawman. nobody likes muslims, right? attacking muslims must make you look good.
it's funny that this criticism comes from someone who has not read the quran, and evidently forgets much of the bible... where judaism is spread by the sword. shall i cite a few passages? how about joshua 1:1-24:33. we can get into the messianic "rule the world" stuff after you've read that part.
Having said the above, imo, articulate and informed creationists are not only what EvC's science sector needs, but what the whole planet needs more of if humanity is to progress and survive. According to the Biblical prophecies, it won't happen until messiah Jesus returns to fix it.
first you're forgetting entire sections of biblical history... and now you're making up portions of it?
So as to be fair and balanced in my citing Mohammed, The Christianity professing popes and bishops of Vatican City were like him, misapplying scripture to empower and enrich themselves and bring upon the planet the brutal bloody dark ages in a Christian era/age where Jesus and the desciples of the Bible advocated non-violence for all of NT Christianity.
so, when islam does it, it's evidence that islam is wrong. when secularists do it, it's evidence that atheism is wrong. when christianity does it... it's an exception, because they obviously weren't reading their copies of the book of joshua close enough?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Buzsaw, posted 08-04-2007 11:10 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Buzsaw, posted 08-05-2007 12:44 PM arachnophilia has replied
 Message 123 by anastasia, posted 08-05-2007 11:26 PM arachnophilia has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 119 of 154 (414616)
08-05-2007 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by arachnophilia
08-05-2007 12:31 AM


Re: Seriously Though
I don't see anything in your message all that relative to topic or even making a lot of sense so I'll decline comment.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by arachnophilia, posted 08-05-2007 12:31 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by arachnophilia, posted 08-05-2007 7:12 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 120 of 154 (414617)
08-05-2007 12:46 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Chiroptera
08-04-2007 11:58 PM


Re: Seriously Though
What does this contribute to the discussion?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present is forever consuming the eternal future and extending the infinite past.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Chiroptera, posted 08-04-2007 11:58 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Chiroptera, posted 08-05-2007 12:59 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
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