Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,485 Year: 3,742/9,624 Month: 613/974 Week: 226/276 Day: 2/64 Hour: 1/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Mode of the Debate: Targeting Children
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 5 of 45 (414466)
08-04-2007 10:46 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Doddy
08-02-2007 5:36 AM


Propoganda
I watched the video and there seems little doubt that the creationist movement is blatantly out to capture the hearts and minds of children from a very early age.
Indoctrination is the name of the game.
That is pretty terrifying.
I don't think that fighting propoganda with propoganda is the right response however.
If you simply tell young children that evolution is true because scientists say so that really is no better than the creationist tactic.
However the arguments as to why evolution is true are probably too complex for the very young.
Ideally children need to be taught that different people believe different things. That there are good reasons for believing in things and bad reasons for believing in things. That you should always question why something is true.
That any belief derived from a book/person/organisation simply telling you something is true is almost always going to be a bad reason to believe.
However, again, most of this is probably beyond the comprehension of small children.
So in summary I don't know what the answer is.
Sorry to be so long-windedly unhelpful.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Doddy, posted 08-02-2007 5:36 AM Doddy has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by arachnophilia, posted 08-04-2007 9:47 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 25 by macaroniandcheese, posted 08-05-2007 8:25 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 6 of 45 (414562)
08-04-2007 7:42 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by jar
08-04-2007 10:32 AM


Ham Fisted
Of course, the TOE does not say that any of our grandfathers or grandmothers were ape like creatures (although I did have this one cousin ...) yet Ken Ham implies just that.
When he showed those 'grandparent' slides I could not help but notice that Ken himself has a bit of the simian look about him......
My apologies for lowering the tone of the discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by jar, posted 08-04-2007 10:32 AM jar has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 9 of 45 (414594)
08-05-2007 4:41 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by arachnophilia
08-04-2007 9:47 PM


Re: Propoganda
just ask... me.
OK I will ask. What is your story in relation to having your heart and mind captured?
As a little kid I was absolutely fascinated with dinosaurs. Knew all the names. Had a decent grasp on which dinosaurs had lived in which period and knew the theory as to why they had gone extinct.
At the same time I was still convinced that Loch Ness contained the last living dinosaur so I was as prone to wishful thinking as any other 6 year old.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by arachnophilia, posted 08-04-2007 9:47 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by arachnophilia, posted 08-05-2007 6:11 AM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 12 of 45 (414603)
08-05-2007 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by arachnophilia
08-05-2007 6:11 AM


Re: Propoganda
ah, see, even at 6 years old i would have been a smart-ass and told you that dinosaurs are land animals, and that if nessie is a plesiosaur, she'd be a marine reptile and not a dinosaur.
A precocious little smart-ass at that!
I guess my point (as much as I have one) is that depite the fact that dinosaurs caught my imagination as a child and that I happened to be exposed to scientific findings on dino related issues rather than creationist ones, I cannot claim that at 6 years old this had any rational basis.
Dinosaurs were just cool.
If I had initially been presented with two points of view on dinosaurs - one where they had been extinct for millions of years and one where they had been frollicking with cave children not too long ago - I think it quite possible I would have chosen the latter on the basis of it's appeal.
Once exposed to scientific thinking on dinos I agree that even at a young age you would start to see many YEC claims for what they are.
BUT it is that first 'appeal' that the creationists in the video are aiming for.
How do we counter that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by arachnophilia, posted 08-05-2007 6:11 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 08-05-2007 11:41 AM Straggler has replied
 Message 18 by ringo, posted 08-05-2007 1:54 PM Straggler has replied
 Message 21 by arachnophilia, posted 08-05-2007 7:24 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 15 of 45 (414622)
08-05-2007 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Grizz
08-05-2007 12:52 PM


Re: Creationist Conundrum is greater than that.
Once they are free I suspect some of the kids will probably let loose and party like madmen
The most shockingly hedonistic out of control sustained behaviour I have ever seen has been from those with socially stifled upbringings.
Once they get a taste of freedom the metaphorical floodgates just open.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Grizz, posted 08-05-2007 12:52 PM Grizz has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 16 of 45 (414623)
08-05-2007 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by jar
08-05-2007 11:41 AM


Re: Creationist Conundrum is greater than that.
The goal is isolation, indoctrination and insulation.
My pessimistic side tells me that too many individuals will be scarred with ignorance for life by this terrible phenomenon.
My optimistic side says that this approach is doomed to failure. That the human spirit will ultimately rebel against such shackles.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by jar, posted 08-05-2007 11:41 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by jar, posted 08-05-2007 1:48 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 19 of 45 (414644)
08-05-2007 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by ringo
08-05-2007 1:54 PM


Re: Propoganda
I don't remember that revelation producing any particular trauma. I never had trouble separating fact from fiction.
Never meant to imply any trauma. Just the suggestion that if presented with two opposing points of view children are more likely to choose on the basis of 'appeal' rather than rationality.
My first exposure to dinosaurs was in the Alley Oop comic strip and, later on, The Flintstones. We didn't have many books on dinosaurs back then (and they were of the brontosaurus-had-two-brains variety) but somehow I learned that humans and dinosaurs never coexisted.
Flinstones and comics are one thing. Adults all around will tell you that these things are not 'real'.
Ken Ham lecturing at the front of a hall in the role of teacher however is a figure of authority and 'knowledge'.
Anyway, I have some confidence in the resiliency of the human mind. Targeting children with lies is vile and insidious, but I'm not convinced it's effective.
I am inclined to agree. The human spirit is naturally rebellious. Especially in the face of blatant bullshit
However even if it does not win out as a tactic in the long term there are bound to be some individual casualties of ignoarnce and that in itself is quite depressing.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by ringo, posted 08-05-2007 1:54 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by ringo, posted 08-05-2007 2:58 PM Straggler has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 34 of 45 (414781)
08-06-2007 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by macaroniandcheese
08-05-2007 8:25 PM


Re: Propoganda
most people who accept evolution probably accept it because of what some book/person/organisation told them.
Very true. But the point is that they do not have to accept it solely on that basis and that should be made clear.
Creationists would say 'believe that which is is in the bible'.
No scientist would say 'believe that which is in Origin of the Species' (for example)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by macaroniandcheese, posted 08-05-2007 8:25 PM macaroniandcheese has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024