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Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 106 of 670 (413777)
08-01-2007 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Phat
08-01-2007 9:51 AM


Re: some thoughts on relationships
So you are saying that we cannot have the same type of a communion/prayer relationship with God that Jesus had?

No. We can have the same communion/prayer relationship that Jesus had while he was here on earth which was only belief.

I would say that Jesus taught us how to commune with God. He was God incarnate, which means that He was not God the Father but was fully and legally Gods representation among us "worms."

NO!

Jesus when here on Earth "became incarnate from the Virgin Mary and was made Man."

Jesus while here on earth was only man, just man. Otherwise the whole theology is but a fraud.

Next you bring in the Westminster Confession of Faith.

Before going into that in depth, you need to learn the History behind it. First, it was a political document. It was created as a test to determine who could hold political power.

Since then it has been revised many times beginning almost immediately. Parts are accepted, many parts rejected, and different churches follow different parts and ignore others.

Are you saying that there is nothing special about accepting Jesus?

Yup.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Phat, posted 08-01-2007 9:51 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 08-06-2007 1:19 PM jar has responded
 Message 126 by Phat, posted 09-04-2007 3:26 PM jar has responded
 Message 127 by macaroniandcheese, posted 09-04-2007 4:19 PM jar has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12161
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 107 of 670 (414802)
08-06-2007 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by jar
08-01-2007 11:12 AM


Where Did We Go Wrong?
I said: But what did Jesus mean when He said
NIV writes:

Matt 19:26-- "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

What did He mean with God?

What about people who do not know God?

Are all things possible for them as well?

My other question is this:

Lets say that every Christian at EvC is reading our little chat. they gave me a list of questions to ask you, so I will do so:

1) Why are some of us willfully ignorant?

2) How are we being dishonest with ourselves?

3) Do we worship or know the same God you do, in your opinion?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by jar, posted 08-01-2007 11:12 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by jar, posted 08-06-2007 1:36 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 108 of 670 (414805)
08-06-2007 1:36 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Phat
08-06-2007 1:19 PM


Re: Where Did We Go Wrong?
What did He mean with God?

That GOD can do things we can't?

1) Why are some of us willfully ignorant?

You must answer that yourself.

2) How are we being dishonest with ourselves?

Mostly by avoiding questioning beliefs against reason, logic and reality.

3) Do we worship or know the same God you do, in your opinion?

I can only go by the description of God that others present. For the most part, many present a tiny little picayune god that is unworthy of even notice, much less respect. Others present an evil little god that might rightly be feared, but could never be loved.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Phat, posted 08-06-2007 1:19 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Phat, posted 08-12-2007 9:52 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12161
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 109 of 670 (415815)
08-12-2007 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by jar
08-06-2007 1:36 PM


Hypothetical Heavenly Courtroom scenarios
Hey Jar! :) I wanted to first ask you for your comments on my post that I made to Rrhain here.

We have agreed that humans are even farther below God (Creator of all that is seen and unseen, by agreed definition) as a garden worm would be below humans. Am I right so far? :o

My argument is that even worms get their day in court...not so much for the purpose of judgment as for the opportunity to get to know The Judge and review their expectations as law abiding worms in the garden of life.

The Judge is God.

The Prosecutor is God.

If Satan exists, he is a witness for the prosecution.

The defense attorney is a chap named Jesse the worm. I hear he is quite good! ;)

The worms on trial are accused of willfully and knowingly breaking the laws of nature.

My question, in light of my hypothetical courtroom scenario, is
whether the Judge will throw the case out of court or allow it to continue?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by jar, posted 08-06-2007 1:36 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 110 by jar, posted 08-12-2007 10:17 AM Phat has not yet responded
 Message 111 by jar, posted 08-12-2007 11:18 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 110 of 670 (415817)
08-12-2007 10:17 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Phat
08-12-2007 9:52 AM


Re: Hypothetical Heavenly Courtroom scenarios
I wanted to first ask you for your comments on my post that I made to Rrhain here.

I think your response was unrelated to the issue he is trying to raise.

My question, in light of my hypothetical courtroom scenario, is
whether the Judge will throw the case out of court or allow it to continue?

I think the scenario is silly. Just how the hell does one "willfully and knowingly" break the laws of nature?

That simply makes no sense at all.

The rest of the scenario is just silly.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Phat, posted 08-12-2007 9:52 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 111 of 670 (415819)
08-12-2007 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 109 by Phat
08-12-2007 9:52 AM


Re: Hypothetical Heavenly Courtroom scenarios
I wanted to make this a separate message for emphasis.

You said:

My argument is that even worms get their day in court...not so much for the purpose of judgment as for the opportunity to get to know The Judge and review their expectations as law abiding worms in the garden of life.

I'm sorry but that is simply not the function of a court. Courts are not there for socialization despite the impression that might result from watching Harry Stone.

If the intention is to get to know GOD, then a backyard BBQ, a fish fry or Low Country Boil is the better venue.

Courts are specifically for trials.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Phat, posted 08-12-2007 9:52 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12161
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 112 of 670 (417994)
08-25-2007 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by jar
07-22-2007 10:18 PM


Ode To A Worm
Faith and Knowledge.

IMB, Faith does not evolve. God is the object of my Faith. I did not simply make Him up, although it has been pointed out to me that I cannot prove this! :rolleyes:

Jar writes:

Reason should always trump blind faith. In fact, blind faith should just be thrown away.

I agree with you when it has been pointed out that I should be able to support my faith and not simply declare that I am correct and that everyone else can go get saved, or whatever arrogant thing an exclusivist would say!

Jar writes:

If GOD is the creator, GOD creates everyone.

Phat writes:

Yes, this makes sense.

If GOD then chooses only some of those She creates and condemns the others, then GOD creates only to punish.

Phat writes:

God may well choose all of us, but it is our decision whether to choose God or not. Most Christians believe that although God has initiated the possibility of salvation for all, we must respond to the invitation. Contrary to that is the teaching of Universal Reconciliation which is a controversial doctrine, to say the least! (Translation: Phat has not yet studied it extensively! ;) )

If GOD foreknows the results and still goes on to create folk, then GOD creates only to punish.


Yet IF God foreknew the results and everyone got saved and made it into Heaven like that darn Parable Of The Workers! I will concede, however, that you clarified your position on this doctrine long ago when you settled it with Father Joe concerning the Warlord in China. Yes, he should have saved everyone!

Jar,message 45 writes:

If we are going to get anywhere you need to stop simply changing what you believe every other line.

OK, but keep in mind that I am testing my beliefs and attempting to articulate them as we speak. Not all of us have ready made Belief Statements such as you do! Sheesh!

Jar,message 79 writes:

Phat you keep saying that God has foreknowledge.

If God is the Creator and God has foreknowledge and some people are damned, then God is evil.

The only point of interaction that we can have with God is at this present moment. It is irrelevant what God foreknows about our future decisions or lack of same. All that is relevant is the type of relationship that we have with God now.
Jar,message 81 writes:

Do you worry about whether or not a worm believes in you?

Exactly what kind of a relationship do you think you could have with a worm?

OK, we have had this one in chat before! :rolleyes: God is a much bigger concept than I used to believe when I was smaller.

I always like to use the Sun-Light-Heat Analogy when talking with kids at the detention center. Here is a sample conversation between myself and an imaginary kid we shall call Jonny Dangerously.
Phat: So, do you like to play sports?

Jonny Yeah. I like Basketball.

Phat: OK. Lets say that you are outside playing B-Ball, OK?

Jonny *shrugs*...sure, ok.

Phat OK. Now the reason that you came to talk with me was for prayer, right?

Jonny Yes, Sir. I am going to court next week and I need you to pray that I will get out!

Phat OK, Jonny, lemme ask you this: Where is God right now?

Jonny Far? Real Far? (God is a belief among the kids that I do my lesson with, although I talk to all of the kids in the pod eventually. I am one of the few religious volunteers that the State of Colorado gives such high access to, since unlike many of the others, I don't try and preach to or convert everyone! ;) )
Note: Some kids say that God is in Heaven. Others say they don't know. Still others say that He is everywhere..all around us. Still others say that He is in their hearts. I get all sorts of responses to this one!

Phat OK, back to the B-Ball game. You are shooting some good shots and are leading the other team by 10 points. The girls wave to you from the stands. You are sweating profusely and take a time-out to go get a drink! Glancing up in the sky, you see that Sun. Did you know that the Sun is a little over 93 million miles from the earth?
Jonny looks blankly....

Say that we could hypothetically build a road straight to the Sun. Say that you had a fast car and that you gunned it and drove at an average speed of 100 miles an hour, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week towards that Sun! How long do you think it would take you to get there?

Jonny A long time? Maybe like a year?

Phat At a hundred miles an hour 24 hours a day, it would take you roughly 106 years to get there! Keep in mind, also, that the Sun is the nearest star. Light takes roughly 9 minutes to get from the Sun to Earth, so you can see that light is quite a bit faster than your Lamborghini! With me so far?

Jonny uh huh...sure i'm listening...go ahead...

Phat The reason that I am using this analogy is that I am attempting to break down the concept of The Faher/Son/Holy Spirit by equating it with the Sun, The Light, and The Heat.
God is much bigger than we humans think He is. The next nearest star is roughly 7 light years away! (I explain to Jonny what a Light Year is.) There are roughly 100 billion stars in the galaxy, and scientists estimate that there may be a hundred billion galaxies!
Jonny :eek: Wow!

I then have Jonny read John 1:1. We talk about the light (spiritual light) and how it shines in the darkness of incomprehension.

Sometimes we talk about why it is difficult for kids who never had Fathers to understand and/or accept God.

Sometimes we don't even talk about God.

I always pray with them, though. And they always remember me.

Sometimes, Jar, I think that God meant for me to know you.

What do you think?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 07-22-2007 10:18 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by jar, posted 08-25-2007 8:18 PM Phat has responded
 Message 114 by Rob, posted 08-25-2007 9:18 PM Phat has not yet responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 113 of 670 (417999)
08-25-2007 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Phat
08-25-2007 7:51 PM


Losing me here.
Yet IF God foreknew the results and everyone got saved and made it into Heaven like that darn Parable Of The Workers! I will concede, however, that you clarified your position on this doctrine long ago when you settled it with Father Joe concerning the Warlord in China. Yes, he should have saved everyone!

I think you are still misunderstanding what I am saying.

You say "God may well choose all of us, but it is our decision whether to choose God or not." However if God has foreknowledge and then creates critters that he knows will reject Her, and then in addition attaches the penalty of damnation, then that God can ONLY be described as evil. It might be something to fear but could never be considered something worthy of love, respect or obedience.

The only point of interaction that we can have with God is at this present moment. It is irrelevant what God foreknows about our future decisions or lack of same. All that is relevant is the type of relationship that we have with God now.

As above, that is irrelevant if God has foreknowledge, is the creator and does attach penalties and sanctions. It is relevant if God has foreknowledge and still creates. The God you describe is simply nothing I could respect, love or worship.

And sorry, I can see no point to your play.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Phat, posted 08-25-2007 7:51 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by Phat, posted 08-27-2007 12:12 PM jar has responded
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 08-27-2007 5:17 PM jar has responded

  
Rob 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3925 days)
Posts: 2297
Joined: 06-01-2006


Message 114 of 670 (418008)
08-25-2007 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by Phat
08-25-2007 7:51 PM


Re: Ode To A Worm
Phat:
The reason that I am using this analogy is that I am attempting to break down the concept of The Faher/Son/Holy Spirit by equating it with the Sun, The Light, and The Heat.

That's a good analogy. And I have never heard it before...

I use math. Addition and multiplication are both math. Together they are math, and individually they are math. So there is distinction as well as harmony. Unity in Diversity.

But yours is good because light is akin to logic. One is physical and the other is physical. Woven together into an emperical fabric, they declare the glory of God.

There are many analogies. Thanks for that one.


content hidden - Great Debate between jar and Phat, please do not reply

Edited by AdminAsgara, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by Phat, posted 08-25-2007 7:51 PM Phat has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 12161
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 115 of 670 (418312)
08-27-2007 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by jar
08-25-2007 8:18 PM


Re: Losing me here.
Jar writes:

You say "God may well choose all of us, but it is our decision whether to choose God or not." However if God has foreknowledge and then creates critters that he knows will reject Her, and then in addition attaches the penalty of damnation, then that God can ONLY be described as evil. It might be something to fear but could never be considered something worthy of love, respect or obedience.

Okay.

First of all, what made you think that you could pick and choose which God to worship based on what you consider fair? (Remember the construct?) God is God no matter whether you refuse to worship Him based on your human logic or not. (I will agree with you, however, that God probably would not get too bent out of shape over your protest.

I'm still having trouble coming to terms with a God who saves everyone yet judges us based on our behavior alone. I know that I have probably already failed the class with this God....so where is the hope there?

Do you believe in the doctrine of Divine Grace or do you consider it a convenient copout?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by jar, posted 08-25-2007 8:18 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by jar, posted 08-27-2007 12:24 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 116 of 670 (418314)
08-27-2007 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by Phat
08-27-2007 12:12 PM


Picking and Choosing?
First of all, what made you think that you could pick and choose which God to worship based on what you consider fair?

We all decide what to worship. It is not a matter of whether I can or not, there is no other option then picking and choosing.

God is God no matter whether you refuse to worship Him based on your human logic or not.

Yes, if God exists then God exists.

But I can also choose to worship or not worship and the God you describe is not something that is worthy of my respect or worship, much less my love. The God you describe is fearsome, loathsome and pityful.

I'm still having trouble coming to terms with a God who saves everyone yet judges us based on our behavior alone. I know that I have probably already failed the class with this God....so where is the hope there?

The hope is that when you are judged it will be by someone who has been human, and personally experienced all those same failures.

Do you believe in the doctrine of Divine Grace or do you consider it a convenient copout?

The concept of Divine Grace as believed by many Christian sects has as a basic tenet Original Sin. Since I do not believe there is any Biblical support or reason to believe in Original Sin, then I cannot be said to believe in that VERSION of Divine Grace.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Phat, posted 08-27-2007 12:12 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12161
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 117 of 670 (418349)
08-27-2007 5:17 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by jar
08-25-2007 8:18 PM


The Bar-B-Que
Jar writes:

If the intention is to get to know GOD, then a backyard BBQ, a fish fry or Low Country Boil is the better venue.

Okay. For the sake of arguement, lets concede the point that Jesus while on earth was only human. He had no supernatural power of His own accord, and it was God working through Him that made His life so intriguing. If we are to go and do likewise, lets transport ourselves to a backyard BBQ or Low Country Boil. The purpose, according to Bobbleheads, is to always be a witness for Christ and to spread the message of His atonement and sacrifice for all of us since He loved us. You, on the other hand, say to throw the old concepts of Jesus away and to just do the best that you can, get along with everyone as best as you can, and do it for no other reason than it is the right thing to do. (Am I representing you correctly?)

So what are the topics of conversation at this event? Are the men telling off color jokes? When the teen guys approach the men, is there talk of getting laid and becoming a man?

Is there flirting going on between the sexes?

To make my position clear, I do not agree that Christians should pretend to be something that they are not. We all are human. We are not a bunch of prissy puritanical hypocrites. (or at least, we shouldnt be! :rolleyes: ) By the same token, however, I think that it is important to be moral and ethical examples for the next generation.

If Dad wants to argue with Mom, do it in the other room! If the neighbor kid brags about getting laid, give him some wisdom as to the perils and pitfalls of anonymous and uncommitted sexual liasons...don't simply share with him stories of what a hellion you were!

jar writes:

And sorry, I can see no point to your play.

The point of the play was not scientific. It was relational. You would have had to have been there, jar. The point of any parable, story, or shared perspective on life is to teach and to build a relationship with the individual. IF God exists, God will use that communion to allow that individual to open up.

If you are talking about football at a backyard Bar-B-Que, God may well use the same communion between you and the family down the street, but my point is that if you are getting drunk and swearing, the play will not convey the right message.

I believe that as witnesses, God does not expect us to be perfect. He expects us to be honest and to always be prepared to share the hope that is in our hearts.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by jar, posted 08-25-2007 8:18 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 08-27-2007 5:47 PM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 118 of 670 (418354)
08-27-2007 5:47 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Phat
08-27-2007 5:17 PM


Re: The Bar-B-Que
The purpose, according to Bobbleheads, is to always be a witness for Christ and to spread the message of His atonement and sacrifice for all of us since He loved us.

Yawn. Who cares.

Let me try to give you a concrete example. One of the Church Websites I help with posts a Commitment to Excellence that each Vestry Person signs. The first item is "Preach the Gospel at all times, if necessary use words."

The way you preach the Gospel is by what you do, words are just a last resort.

So what are the topics of conversation at this event? Are the men telling off color jokes? When the teen guys approach the men, is there talk of getting laid and becoming a man?

Very likely.

Is there flirting going on between the sexes?

Absolutely.

By the same token, however, I think that it is important to be moral and ethical examples for the next generation.

Guess how you get a next generation?

I believe that as witnesses, God does not expect us to be perfect. He expects us to be honest and to always be prepared to share the hope that is in our hearts.

Honest? You need to be honest with yourself. But honest with yourself for YOU, not for God.

And sure, share the hope that is in your heart, if necessary use words.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Phat, posted 08-27-2007 5:17 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by Phat, posted 08-28-2007 8:02 AM jar has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 12161
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.2


Message 119 of 670 (418445)
08-28-2007 8:02 AM
Reply to: Message 118 by jar
08-27-2007 5:47 PM


Re: The Bar-B-Que
Jar writes:

Honest? You need to be honest with yourself. But honest with yourself for YOU, not for God.

And sure, share the hope that is in your heart, if necessary use words.

We could draw pictures! A picture is worth a thousand words, according to some.

A group of people were standing around a painting...a work of art that stood apart from the rest of the pictures in the gallery. The painting had quite a few nuances and a few features that appeared to have been placed entirely out of rational context---nonetheless they fit the overall painting like a hand fits a glove.

The observers all began to comment on the painting, and some of them were considered experts at Art History and were familiar with other styles of Art and overall periods of artistic expression throughout history. Overall, however, the opinions of each individual about what the piece meant to them was relative...and entirely valid for the individual. We could argue that the interpretation of the art would always be relative in that no one opinion carried more weight than another....except for the opinion and explanation from the artist himself.

Having created the picture from his mind and through his body, the artist alone knows the message that the art was meant to convey.

People obviously do not need to have the same interpretation that the artist intended, but there is little debate over whose opinion carries the most weight. The Artist alone determines the meaning of his/her Art. Its the same with God. The One who painted the picture, created the intelligence to even form the words of expression, and foreknew the character of every living thing and who made reality and awareness possible has the best opinion on the overall purpose and meaning of life itself. (Of course, we are free (by design) to disagree! :rolleyes:

BTW why is it that God is unknowable? Is it impossible for God to make Himself knowable to us?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by jar, posted 08-27-2007 5:47 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by jar, posted 08-28-2007 11:24 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 120 of 670 (418476)
08-28-2007 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by Phat
08-28-2007 8:02 AM


Re: The Bar-B-Que
People obviously do not need to have the same interpretation that the artist intended, but there is little debate over whose opinion carries the most weight.

Nonsense. That point is being debated in this thread.

The Artist alone determines the meaning of his/her Art.

I'm sorry but that is simply nonsense. The artist may be able to point out what meaning She tried to convey, but the viewer is also able to point out that the artist failed.

You acknowledged that yourself when you wrote "Having created the picture from his mind and through his body, the artist alone knows the message that the art was meant to convey."

Meant to convey.

To start off you said,

"We could draw pictures! A picture is worth a thousand words, according to some."

If that is really in response to what I had posted earlier, it could be an addendum, "Preach the Gospel, if necessary use words or pictures." But words or pictures are still only means of last resort. The primary way to preach the Gospel is to do; not say, not sing, not testify, but do.

You then went on to say:

Phat writes:

The Artist alone determines the meaning of his/her Art. Its the same with God. The One who painted the picture, created the intelligence to even form the words of expression, and foreknew the character of every living thing and who made reality and awareness possible has the best opinion on the overall purpose and meaning of life itself.

Even if true, so what? What does that have to do with you or me or anyone else living? So what if God knows what God intended. We are not God and we can only judge the work, not the intent.

It really sounds like the classic example of preaching a Gospel of Nonsense.

BTW why is it that God is unknowable? Is it impossible for God to make Himself knowable to us?

Certainly it is possible for God to make Herself knowable to us. It could raise man up to be God. That way Man and God could know each other.

There is the other possibility, It could diminish Itself to be just Man. However in that case we know another man, not a God.

Edited by jar, : amazing how many misspelled words can pass through a spell checker.


Aslan is not a Tame Lion
This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by Phat, posted 08-28-2007 8:02 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 08-28-2007 4:14 PM jar has responded

  
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