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Author Topic:   ramifications of omnipotence for God
macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 16 of 224 (414679)
08-05-2007 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Jon
08-05-2007 5:20 PM


i think that's patently ridiculous as evidenced by the fact that they refuse to accept evolution in any sense.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Jon, posted 08-05-2007 5:20 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by pbee, posted 08-05-2007 6:18 PM macaroniandcheese has replied
 Message 19 by Jon, posted 08-05-2007 6:22 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

  
pbee
Member (Idle past 6028 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 17 of 224 (414685)
08-05-2007 6:18 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by macaroniandcheese
08-05-2007 5:22 PM


I think that in this case the term "christians" is subjected to over-generalization. They are plenty of christians who support evolution. In fact, the Genesis account seems to favor evolution rather than contradict it as many would argue. Although we have countless people covering their ears at the sound of such things, it would seem as though God may have instilled an evolutionary process as a timeless mechanism to propel diversity on our planet.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by macaroniandcheese, posted 08-05-2007 5:22 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 18 of 224 (414686)
08-05-2007 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Jon
08-05-2007 7:50 AM


PacMan: Chasing Ghosts
Jon writes:
You still have to answer: "if God can...create all men with the capability of free will and obedience to him...then why does he not do so?"
Actually I believe thats how He did create us. We have the free will and yet we have an inner unction to obey truth. Its just a matter of discovering for ourselves (and being guided also) into what that truth is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Jon, posted 08-05-2007 7:50 AM Jon has replied

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 Message 24 by Jon, posted 08-06-2007 1:01 AM Phat has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 19 of 224 (414687)
08-05-2007 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by macaroniandcheese
08-05-2007 5:22 PM


My post was concerning Christians, a fairly large body of which do accept evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by macaroniandcheese, posted 08-05-2007 5:22 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 20 of 224 (414698)
08-05-2007 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by iceage
08-05-2007 4:09 PM


Re: Free-will and disobedience
iceage writes:
Most Christian doctrine asserts that we have a natural propensity to disobey God because we are Adam's seed and we require the Grace of God to overcome are sinful nature.
Yeah, and in plain language that translates into 'it's human nature to look out for one's self, but it is intelligence which looks out for the greater good'. Of course men have the propensity to desire survival, but we often don't know what is in our best interest. You might seek answers via 'God's grace', or via trial and error, and life long learning.
God could make us with an inherent and overwhelming desire to obey him and still have free-will.
Why? God already made angels, and animals, and rocks, and plants, and a gazillion things which either have no free will, or exist just to obey. Omnipotence just says that 'God could have'. God could have made purple spaghetti monsters...so what?

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 Message 12 by iceage, posted 08-05-2007 4:09 PM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 21 of 224 (414699)
08-05-2007 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by pbee
08-05-2007 6:18 PM


i think it would be obvious that i was referring to fundies. being an evolutionary christian.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 22 of 224 (414700)
08-05-2007 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Jon
08-05-2007 6:22 PM


*sigh*
i'm a christian. i accept evolution. and i don't think that the common christian belief supports an omnipotent god. of course my own opinion on whether a god must be omnipotent or no... the jury is out.
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

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iceage 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5915 days)
Posts: 1024
From: Pacific Northwest
Joined: 09-08-2003


Message 23 of 224 (414749)
08-06-2007 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by anastasia
08-05-2007 7:28 PM


Re: Free-will and disobedience
Wow I can't believe that I used "are" for "our" I guess I need to reread what I write.
Ana writes:
Of course men have the propensity to desire survival
I didn't say survival or self-interest, I said propensity to disobey God as Adam (and Eve) so well demonstrated.
Ana writes:
Omnipotence just says that 'God could have'. God could have made purple spaghetti monsters...so what?
I think you are missing Sidelined's point. The issue is that God supposedly made us with a stubborn propensity to disobey and sin. Christians say that this is the consequence of God giving us free-will; otherwise, or so the line goes, we would be mindless robots without personality. This is a lame arguement as free-will and propensity to disobey God are not correlated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by anastasia, posted 08-05-2007 7:28 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 24 of 224 (414751)
08-06-2007 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Phat
08-05-2007 6:19 PM


Re: PacMan: Chasing Ghosts
Wow, that's sure a mess of logic you got there, but before we get to that, you will also have to answer the first question I posited:
quote:
So then you agree that God can do anything at all that He feels needs doing?
Jon

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Replies to this message:
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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 25 of 224 (414759)
08-06-2007 2:20 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by pbee
08-05-2007 3:29 PM


pbee
It would be interesting as to "what" one would conclude God cannot do in reference to his authority over things.
I am making no conclusion. It is the common position by many Christians that their God is omnipotent. Now since this means that there is no limit on the capability he has to produce whatever creation he wishes my question becomes why would he not make one capable of freewill and one where the wrong choices are never made?
Indeed being as another tribute of God is claimed the ability of omniscience {all-knowing} this would mean that he would know all the outcome choices that would be made by anyone so why the theatrical drama of placing men through the so called "fall from grace" and all the evil and misery supposedly produced by it? For an entity claimed to be synonymous with love could someone tell me how this is the action of a loving God?

"The tragedy of life is not so much what men suffer, but rather what they miss."
Thomas Carlyle

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by pbee, posted 08-05-2007 3:29 PM pbee has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by pbee, posted 08-06-2007 11:38 AM sidelined has replied
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pbee
Member (Idle past 6028 days)
Posts: 339
Joined: 06-20-2007


Message 26 of 224 (414785)
08-06-2007 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by sidelined
08-06-2007 2:20 AM


quote:
my question becomes why would he not make one capable of freewill and one where the wrong choices are never made?
Again, free will... it is or it isn't. If God created humans without the capacity to exercise free will, then they would not have free will. This would include making provisions to avoid sinning.
quote:
Indeed being as another tribute of God is claimed the ability of omniscience {all-knowing} this would mean that he would know all the outcome choices that would be made by anyone so why the theatrical drama of placing men through the so called "fall from grace" and all the evil and misery supposedly produced by it? For an entity claimed to be synonymous with love could someone tell me how this is the action of a loving God?
That's a very interesting point. We could conclude that God(all knowing) could peer into the future of a particular human and see the outcome. However, God seemed to extend a measure of respect for his human creations, much like a parent would not go snooping in his or her child's room.
Assuming for a moment that we ourselves had the capacity to create our own virtual life forms. We could conclude that the creation of personalities(companions) as a reflection of our own capabilities would be very rewarding. Now assuming all this was possible, would there be any value or grace in creating entities which choose to respect their masters based on code or on there own capacity to identify and appreciate their makers attributes?
We could take things a bit further apply the same framework to evaluate the implications of free will also. - God created humans with free will. He implanted us with the faculty of freedom of choice. It was indeed a wonderful gift.
Another question arises also, why then did Adam and Eve sin? were they defective from the start? It would seem that God allowed them to disobey because he never intended to create a world of automatons, beings who serve God only because they are programmed to do so. Like any parent, God wanted his human children to obey him out of feelings of trust and love instead of compulsion and fear. He gave Adam and Eve ample reason to trust and love him, but they disobeyed and rejected his rulership anyway.
Another question arises also. Would Eve have sinned without the interjection of Satan? For the most part, it would seem as though Satan eludes much of his responsibilities in this entire matter. Let's face it, he is, in every sense of the word, a piece of shit. he knew exactly what was going on behind the scenes and yet he chose to mess with the system and work Eve while she was alone(less her husband). Between the two, Satan holds the keys to this entire fiasco. We can only conclude that God factored this into the equation when he chose a recovery instead of a wipe down. Otherwise, He issued the command and we all know that there was no changing that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by sidelined, posted 08-06-2007 2:20 AM sidelined has replied

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anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 27 of 224 (414809)
08-06-2007 2:03 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by iceage
08-06-2007 12:58 AM


Re: Free-will and disobedience
iceage writes:
I didn't say survival or self-interest, I said propensity to disobey God as Adam (and Eve) so well demonstrated.
I know, I know, but but just what do you think a 'propensity to disobey God' IS? If anything in religion is to be meaningful, it can't just be some mythological terms bandied about for centuries.
I think you are missing Sidelined's point. The issue is that God supposedly made us with a stubborn propensity to disobey and sin. Christians say that this is the consequence of God giving us free-will; otherwise, or so the line goes, we would be mindless robots without personality. This is a lame arguement as free-will and propensity to disobey God are not correlated.
I am not missing the point. Even if the Bible were completely made up, it is based on the simple observation of man's dual nature. Intelligent man has choices to make. If we suppose that we were not very intelligent, we would depend more on instinct. Intelligence has the strange result of making us stupid, because we have to trial and error our way through 'solutions', whereas a being without free will could conceivably get it 'right' the first time.
Since Christians ascribe the duality of man to the 'flesh' versus the 'spirit', it is perfectly fine to say we have a 'propensity' for survival/fleshly desire, which competes with a higher calling. The higher calling is only known through intelligence and reason, and again, our intelligence can work against us.
Intelligence and free-will are the same thing to me, it's as if we became too intelligent to follow a 'plan'. You look at little children, you see that when they reach a ceratin 'age of reason', they suddenly become aware that their choices have consequences. They have 'the knowledge of Good and Evil'. When they are just 'being children' they can do no wrong.
What you guys are saying is that if men were stupid, God would be omnipotent. Some of the arguments against God that I see here are very, very simplistic theologically.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by iceage, posted 08-06-2007 12:58 AM iceage has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 31 by iceage, posted 08-06-2007 3:29 PM anastasia has replied

  
anastasia
Member (Idle past 5953 days)
Posts: 1857
From: Bucks County, PA
Joined: 11-05-2006


Message 28 of 224 (414812)
08-06-2007 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by sidelined
08-06-2007 2:20 AM


Sidelined writes:
I am making no conclusion. It is the common position by many Christians that their God is omnipotent. Now since this means that there is no limit on the capability he has to produce whatever creation he wishes my question becomes why would he not make one capable of freewill and one where the wrong choices are never made?
Why are you assuming He didn't? Christians certainly don't assume He didn't!
I believe there are scores of angels who have never sinned, as well as Jesus, Mary, and many saints. If a person has never even remotely desired sin, as in being aware of it's tempting lure, they would hardly HAVE free will, but would be creatures in a mental enclosure. A sin is just a great aberration from the design. There are already plenty of critters and creations which do not have the intelligence to reinvent themselves.

This message is a reply to:
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tudwell
Member (Idle past 5978 days)
Posts: 172
From: KCMO
Joined: 08-20-2006


Message 29 of 224 (414824)
08-06-2007 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by anastasia
08-05-2007 2:39 PM


anastasia writes:
Omnipotence means God can do anything. I don't see how God having the ability to create man with free will means that God can't create man with no free will. He already created plenty of things without it. Are you confusing omnipotence with being a control freak?
I think you misunderstood me. I'm saying that by giving man free will, God has decided to limit his power. Even if he wanted to interfere with man's affairs, he couldn't, because the second he does, man doesn't have free will. He's not omnipotent anymore if man has free will.
I think where this line of reasoning might fail is one could say God chose to give man free will. He still has the ability to intervene, he just chooses not to. I don't know, it was just random musing on my part.

This message is a reply to:
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tudwell
Member (Idle past 5978 days)
Posts: 172
From: KCMO
Joined: 08-20-2006


Message 30 of 224 (414828)
08-06-2007 3:09 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by pbee
08-05-2007 3:29 PM


pbee writes:
Either they are free or not. If God created humans in such a way that they could not sin, then they could never claim absolute freedom.
I don't see why. There's lots of things humans can't do. We can't fly, breathe underwater, travel through time, et alia. Sure, we might have free will, but there are limits. If God didn't want us sinning, he could have made us without the capability of sin. There would still be lots of other things to do and to choose to do, just not sin. We would still have free will, just one more constraint on what we as humans can physically accomplish.

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