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Author Topic:   Deism in the Dock
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 270 (415241)
08-08-2007 10:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Straggler
08-08-2007 8:13 PM


To Atheists
Okay.
-
Is there really nothing out there.
Well, if you're talking about gods and stuff, yeah, that's the way it seems to me.
-
Are you really really sure?
About as sure as I am about anything, I guess.
-
“There is no evidence” I hear you cry.
Well, okay. Does anyone need any more reason?
-
Did everything really come from nothing?
As we've explained many times in the cosmology threads, this question doesn't even make sense.
And at any rate, postulating a deity doesn't really resolve anything, either. It simply changes which thing came from nothing.
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And doesn’t quantum theory and it’s ”role of the conscious observer’ implications pose some fairly awkward questions?
Maybe for the New Age woo-woo junkies. The rest of us realize there isn't a "role" for conscious observers in quantum mechanics.
-
The ultimate evidence is against you.
Only if you think that a
(slightly drunken) rant
counts as "ultimate evidence".

I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! -- Ned Flanders

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Straggler, posted 08-08-2007 8:13 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Straggler, posted 08-10-2007 2:30 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 21 of 270 (415335)
08-09-2007 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by mike the wiz
08-09-2007 1:33 PM


Couldn't we say the same for God?
Well, they are doing experiments right now to try to detect signs of the Higgs boson. The Higgs boson is believed to exist because theories that explain things that we do see and detect predict that the Higgs boson should exist as well. These theories also give a precise description (or, at least, a limited range in its properties) so that people know what they are looking for and can agree if and when they find it.
If the Higgs boson is discovered, other people will repeat the experiments, and devise clever new ones, to confirm that the Higgs boson was observed.
If, after years of looking for the signs that the theories tell them to look for, scientists fail to see any sign of the Higgs boson, the theories will end up being modified and replaced, and it may even be that the new theories will no longer claim that there is a Higgs boson.
Could we say the same for God?

I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! -- Ned Flanders

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by mike the wiz, posted 08-09-2007 1:33 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Michael, posted 08-09-2007 9:18 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 270 (415487)
08-10-2007 12:00 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Hyroglyphx
08-10-2007 12:12 AM


Be careful of unintended heresy!
Hi, nj.
The Trinity, of course, is nothing like that. God is one. The one God has triune characteristics composing of a singular God.
Ice, water, vapor.... Three different characteristics for the same thing... H2O.
Actually, what you are describing sounds like a heresy called modalism. It has traditionally been considered heretical, and, as far as I know, none of the traditional Christian denominations accept it.
Of course, it has been my experience that most Christians that I know personally (including when I was a fundamentalist Baptist) don't really understand the doctrine of the Trinity, and end being modalists without realizing that it goes against the doctrines of their church.
But you might want to discuss this matter with someone in your denomination who has some theological training; you may be teaching something contrary to the doctrines of your church.

I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! -- Ned Flanders

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Hyroglyphx, posted 08-10-2007 12:12 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 08-10-2007 12:14 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 270 (415500)
08-10-2007 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by jar
08-10-2007 12:14 PM


Re: Be careful of unintended heresy!
Hi, jar.
I should also point out that most of the traditional denominations (including, I suspect, nj's, although I don't know which one he belongs to) admit that the concept of the Trinity is a mystery that appears to be logically incoherent to finite human minds. So Archer's example is apt -- Christianity itself isn't free from the coherency problem nj is trying to associate with the non-exclusive religions.

I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! -- Ned Flanders

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by jar, posted 08-10-2007 12:14 PM jar has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 270 (415573)
08-10-2007 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Straggler
08-10-2007 8:19 PM


Re: ATHEISM DISPROVED!!!!!!!!!!
Instead you got as far as the end of my not particularly serious, and admittedly rather feeble, attack on atheism before laying into this mercilessly and at face value.
Huh? I knew exactly what you were doing and what you meant. I assumed that everyone else did, too. I assumed, and I think everyone else did, too, that despite the jocularity of your post, you were asking for a serious discussion. Well, everyone, as far as I can see, have been answering as the points in contention deserve to be answered.
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Does deism have any merits in that respect in your opinion?
Not really, in my opinion. I'm not even sure these "why" type of questions even make sense. I suspect that even if they do, they don't have answers. "The universe simply exists" doesn't seem to me to be any less satisfying than "Some god somewhere somehow made the universe at some time," and it certainly has fewer moving parts.

I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! -- Ned Flanders

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Straggler, posted 08-10-2007 8:19 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Straggler, posted 08-11-2007 4:44 AM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 270 (415702)
08-11-2007 4:18 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Straggler
08-11-2007 4:44 AM


Do you think authors like Hawking and Kaku (and no doubt many more) leave the option of a sort of non-interfering deity very intentionally open in order just to appease the theistically minded slightly? Or do you think they genuinely consider it a possibility?
Heh. I had to look up who Kaku is.
I don't know what these people really think, and I haven't read enough of them to even take a good guess.
I do think that Paul Davies might be sincere when he makes these musings.

I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! -- Ned Flanders

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Straggler, posted 08-11-2007 4:44 AM Straggler has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 164 of 270 (416114)
08-13-2007 10:52 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by crashfrog
08-13-2007 10:33 PM


If I remember my fundamentalist eschatology correctly, after Satan is thrown into hell, there isn't going to be any more sin, and the new heaven and the new earth is going to be filled with all these non-diverse robots that God didn't want in the first place.
So, either he can manage to eliminate sin without creating a bunch of non-diverse robots, or he really doesn't mind them after all.

I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! -- Ned Flanders

This message is a reply to:
 Message 163 by crashfrog, posted 08-13-2007 10:33 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by Rob, posted 08-14-2007 2:17 AM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 172 of 270 (416192)
08-14-2007 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 166 by Rob
08-14-2007 2:17 AM


Wrong... they will still be able to sin... but like Jesus, they won't.
Huh? What? I don't remember ever learning that. You're just making that up now.
-
Because they have learned.
How? By dying? Dying teaches Christians how not to sin? Now you're not even making any sense.
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And they will each bring their own unique and indivdual traits with them....
Except for the ability to sin, which you claim is important to have.

I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! -- Ned Flanders

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Rob, posted 08-14-2007 2:17 AM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Rob, posted 08-14-2007 2:59 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 179 of 270 (416217)
08-14-2007 4:40 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Rob
08-14-2007 2:59 PM


I will have to back off of my position on our ability to sin in heaven....
We eat from both the knowledge of good, and evil. he'll take that away, now that we've seen the consequences.
Okay, so God will remove the ability to sin. So either lacking having the ability to sin does not make people robots (like crashfrog is saying), or God really doesn't mind it if people are robots.
Either way, God could have arranged it from the beginning so that people couldn't sin. It will be exactly what God is going to arrange anyway, except with far fewer people in hell.

I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! -- Ned Flanders

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Rob, posted 08-14-2007 2:59 PM Rob has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Rob, posted 08-14-2007 9:50 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 199 of 270 (416375)
08-15-2007 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Rob
08-14-2007 9:50 PM


There's something lacking in the analysis, but I can't visualize it yet....
I'll keep praying and thinking about it.
Fair enough.

I've done everything the Bible says, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff! -- Ned Flanders

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Rob, posted 08-14-2007 9:50 PM Rob has not replied

  
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