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Author Topic:   Evolution is random! Stop saying it isn't!
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 23 of 99 (415383)
08-09-2007 8:46 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Bodhitharta
08-09-2007 8:06 PM


Re: random selection and a model of evolution
If the mutations are random then the biological viability/fitness would also be random.
This is true as far as it goes. If we assume that a population of genetically identical individuals of equal fitness gives rise to a new generation who differ only due to random mutations then the distriution of fitness in the next generation will reflect the randomness of the causative mutations.
The 'non-randomness' of natural selection is principally just some obvious observations on the repercussions of certain types of mutation. Mutations which prevent the embryo from developing will not be passed on to the next generation, mutations causing sterility will not be passed on to the next generation, mutations which lead to an individual having more offspring will tend to be over represented in the next generation, mutations which lead to an individual having less offspring will tend to be under represented in the next generation.
So while the initial distribution and effect of the mutations is random the set of mutations passed on to the subsequent generation and their frequency is dependent on the interaction of each particular mutation with its environment. Assuming no further mutations occur in the next generation the frequencies of mutations in the subsequent generation will not reflect the random distribution of the mutations in the previous generation.
The whole system is only random to the extent that it has some random element in it.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Bodhitharta, posted 08-09-2007 8:06 PM Bodhitharta has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Bodhitharta, posted 08-09-2007 8:50 PM Wounded King has replied
 Message 88 by Doddy, posted 08-14-2007 9:40 PM Wounded King has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 31 of 99 (415441)
08-10-2007 4:24 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Bodhitharta
08-09-2007 8:50 PM


Re: random selection and a model of evolution
What about them? They are the ones which lead to an individual having more offspring and which will tend to be over represented in the next generation.
If you accept 'random' mutation then unless you consider it impossible that DNA can change in any way which leads to an organism having increased reproductive success you must also accept that some proportion of random mutations will be beneficial.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Bodhitharta, posted 08-09-2007 8:50 PM Bodhitharta has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 34 of 99 (415454)
08-10-2007 7:10 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Bodhitharta
08-10-2007 6:40 AM


Re: random selection and a model of evolution
This makes no sense.
Could you take a bit more time to explain your position. At the moment you are just giving glib one sentence responses to a whole lot of lengthier rebuttals, and none of your answers seem to have any actual substance or sometimes even coherence.
This latest post is a good example and is similar to your response to me
So what about "Random" positive mutations?
Which was asking about something I had already covered in my post
Now you respond to Goddy with a post which doesn't address his point and doesn't even make grammatical, let alone scientific, sense.
What is it about the 'instructions of DNA' that is very predictable?
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Bodhitharta, posted 08-10-2007 6:40 AM Bodhitharta has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Doddy, posted 08-10-2007 8:28 AM Wounded King has replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 38 of 99 (415469)
08-10-2007 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 36 by Doddy
08-10-2007 8:28 AM


Re: random selection and a model of evolution
Thats what I assumed he meant, but that covers only the barest fraction of what DNA actually does, and it seems to have no relevance at all to randomness.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Doddy, posted 08-10-2007 8:28 AM Doddy has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 89 of 99 (416314)
08-15-2007 6:18 AM
Reply to: Message 88 by Doddy
08-14-2007 9:40 PM


Re: random selection and a model of evolution
I'm not sure what the benefit of repeatedly using a clearly inapplicable definition is, shouldn't there be a difference between playing Devil's advocate and playing dumb?
The relevant definition is clearly along the lines of ...
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition writes:
Of or relating to a type of circumstance or event that is described by a probability distribution.
There is a perfectly good term for when all probabilities are equal and it is equiprobable. If I wanted to say that the distribution and effect of mutations were equiprobable then that is what I would have said, and had I said that I would clearly be lying or delusional since the most basic familiarity with molecular genetics would give the lie to both parts of the statement.
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by Doddy, posted 08-14-2007 9:40 PM Doddy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Doddy, posted 08-15-2007 9:20 AM Wounded King has not replied
 Message 91 by Equinox, posted 08-15-2007 11:47 AM Wounded King has not replied

  
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